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Questions for Steve and others

Author	Comment
deaconess	Questions for Steve and others		Lead	[-]
Posts: 7280 07/02/2008 10:28 NAC Thorn in the Side	Tags : None Steve, I can well imagine that you have had many inner conversations through the years about what to do with information that you obtained about the church leaders... perhaps a "why me?"... is there a "purpose for my knowing?"... "Am I to be a tool in God's hand... if so, how?"... DOES God want me to do anything... or will lightening strike and God will take care of it Himself?" Perhaps you've looked around you at fellow members... and heard the "clunk" of a child's small change dropping into the offering box. Does that sound pierce your heart... knowing about past stewardship? Steve... what was tugging at you to motivate your sharing bits and pieces after all of these years? I don't believe it was motivated by a need to laud it over... to remind leaders of the power of the "knowledge" that you have. I believe you have a conscience. I believe you have a heart. What can you say to "me"... who unknowingly in the 1980s and 1990s continued to support the church financially... who lifted my still young children up high enough to drop their coins in.... who wheeled my grandparents up to the box... who taught children in Sunday School about offering... but never realized, understood, or taught the Biblical lesson of "stewardship"? We've never met Steve... but there are brothers and sisters in your congregation that you HAVE met... what do you say to them? Last Edited By: deaconess 07/06/2008 08:42. Edited 1 time.
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Calamity	Enablers	#1		[-]
Posts: 5017 07/05/2008 12:36 MythInformed	It's a nice appeal deac, but ultimately Steve is just another enabler of the type of thinking SoE pointed out recently ("oh, i'm following the faith/office/commission, not the man"). Nothing against the guy, I just think you're wasting your breath. After all, a NAC "Chief Apostle" gave him a "word". And we all know how the idiotic pronouncements these mere men utter usually turn out. One day the rest of the story will be told, but I can guarantee you it won't come from the lips or keyboards of any of The Enablers.
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deaconess	on a carpet roll...	#2		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 05:17 NAC Thorn in the Side	...AND dear Chief Apostle Fehr and Chief Apostle Leber... what do YOU say to "me"... knowing what you know about Kraus regarding "money"... what do YOU say to "me"?????? SoE previously commented: "the behavior of the NAC and its leaders has been excused time and again by the whole "oh, i'm following the faith/office/commission, not the man" type thinking..., that's pure crap. sooner or later the buck should stop and these black suits need to be held accountable for what they say and do. " I agree. They SHOULD be held accountable... ESPECIALLY when bucks stopped in their own pockets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Chief Apostle Leber: It's FAR better for the members to hear things from the leaders, rather than outside sources. Will District Apostle Freund and District Apostle Latorcai be publicly apologizing to the members soon and acknowledge sins of past leaders? Will District Apostle Freund be apologizing soon to the Synod brothers for the way things were handled in 2002? It would be nice for the next District Apostle for the United States to not have to start off with all that extra ugly baggage... always looking over their shoulder... wondering when all that garbage will come out. Last Edited By: deaconess 07/06/2008 05:27. Edited 1 time.
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deaconess	financial abuse	#3		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 05:57 NAC Thorn in the Side	Chief Apostle Leber: Given the current Constitution/By-laws, what assurances do "I" have that there are enough checks and balances in place to ensure that leaders in the future, such as Kraus, won't be tempted to take advantage of their power and control of church assets?
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deaconess	disbursing with detail	#4		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 07:16 NAC Thorn in the Side	The original 1932 Constitution of the National Organization of the New Apostolic Church of North America provided for financial transparency: Article VII, Section 9. At the close of each calendar year the National Council shall render to the National Synod and President a report setting forth the general financial condition of the respective parishes of the Church, and shall likewise render to the President and the National Synod a report of all receipts and disbursements during that year, together with a statement of the assets and liabilities of the National Organization of the Church. District Apostle Richard C. Freund deliberately left this provision for financial transparency out of the new Constitution. He failed to present to the 2002 Synod the previous Constitution(s) prior to their signing the new one. Because of this, the brothers were not aware about financial transparency having been a previous provision. Would they have noticed the absence of this in the new constitution if they had been exposed to the old one? Perhaps it was easier for Freund to keep details of Kraus' loan arrangement from the brothers, and to conceal details of the split of the assets between Canada and the U.S. by excluding provisions for accountability to the members of the synod. To this day... I don't understand how over 400 ball-less brothers at the 2002 Synod never thought to ask basic questions.... Steve.... do you think that if ANY of the brothers had been aware of Kraus' dealings, that they would have made attempts to ensure that the new Constitution would have checks and balances in place that would limit abuse of power by future leaders... ?
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deaconess	...	#5		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 07:46 NAC Thorn in the Side	a reminder: Even though the Constitution had provided for accountability, Kraus circumvented this by getting the brothers to sign over to him full authority to make all financial decisions without review or accountability or approval of any one else. Any of you gutless brothers still out there that not only turned over to Kraus all the keys to the churches but all the keys to safe as well... to do with as HE pleased. Was it $50-60,000,000 that he borrowed? What was the interest rate? (I personally can't believe it was 0%... I mean... who could stoop that low!?!?!?!) And how long was he given to pay it back? (I can't believe it could be 50 years... can you? Who's ever heard of such a thing?!?!?) Thank God he wasn't made Chief Apostle and given the keys to the kingdom of heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What do YOU have to say to me... oh faithful stewards of my trust? I'd REALLY like to know how Kolb Sr. and Fendt Sr. and Wagner (and any of the other apostles in on what Kraus was doing) could stand behind an altar and preach one word about offering? How could they just stand by and do nothing?
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deaconess	...	#6		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 07:47 NAC Thorn in the Side	do ANY of those people have a conscience?
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Calamity	Lifestyles of the rich and famous	#7		[-]
Posts: 5017 07/06/2008 08:51 MythInformed	deaconess said: What do YOU have to say to me... oh faithful stewards of my trust? I'd REALLY like to know how Kolb Sr. and Fendt Sr. and Wagner (and any of the other apostles in on what Kraus was doing) could stand behind an altar and preach one word about offering? How could they just stand by and do nothing? How? Because they were benefitting from it, too. Look at the homes they live in compared to the home you live in. Look at the businesses they pushed through the church. They're still making money from the church. Their families are set for life because of the "blessings" they guaranteed for themselves by hitching their wagons to the Kraus machine. They'll continue to stand by and do nothing because their lifestyles depend on their silence. deaconess said: do ANY of those people have a conscience? Lying for God was a lucrative business for them. Lying for God is a lucrative business for their sons and daughters. Nothing will change because change will affect their lifestyles, and they'll never allow that to happen.
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Still Standing		#8		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/06/2008 12:44	Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 19:01. Edited 1 time.
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deaconess	purest fount	#9		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/06/2008 13:03 NAC Thorn in the Side	StillStanding commented: Can an instrument that consciously chooses to remain contaminated possibly be a fountain from which pure water can flow? What makes anyone believe that God would condone this? And, what person would look on and watch others "drink" knowing the water was contaminated? from the New Apostolic Hymnal, published in 1986 by the New Apostolic Church International Apostle Unity, Zurich (Switzerland) #536 Purest fount of love is flowing Purest fount of love is flowing from the throne of grace for me, In the rock I'm safely sheltered, there I find sweet rest in Thee. Chorus: Tis a love that has no equal, flowing from the Saviour's breast, Where all cares and fears must vanish; from this rock comes peace and blessed rest. I will sing of all His goodness and His works anew embrace. For His children He erected once again the throne of grace. Here's the blessed godly pasture where the living water flows, where the pure in heart find refuge and salvation for their souls. Come partake, the feast is ready which God's children will delight, where thro' Jesus'grace and guidance, we forever will unite! from this rock comes peace and blessed rest.... when will the truth come?
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Still Standing		#10		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/06/2008 14:25	Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 19:01. Edited 1 time.
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BrendaP		#11		[-]
Posts: 6692 07/06/2008 14:37 Administrator	I know that you both have asked honest, sincere, and direct questions pertaining to the latest issues at hand of Leber, Freund, Steve, and many others via the NACBoard. However, they might feign ignorance by claiming they do not read the NACBoard and therefore were unaware of these concerns. There is at least ONE person who can come forward and lay it all on the table personally. Why he hasn't done so yet, is beyond my understanding. Keeping quiet is like "aiding and abetting" when it comes to a crime... in this instance it is assisting with keeping the members "blind". Those of you in the know - you know who you are - come clean!!! Tell the truth once and for all!!!!
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bertiesb		#12		[-]
Posts: 1085 07/06/2008 19:34 May Contain Traces Of Nut.	BrendaP wrote: I know that you both have asked honest, sincere, and direct questions pertaining to the latest issues at hand of Leber, Freund, Steve, and many others via the NACBoard. However, they might feign ignorance by claiming they do not read the NACBoard and therefore were unaware of these concerns. There is at least ONE person who can come forward and lay it all on the table personally. Why he hasn't done so yet, is beyond my understanding. Keeping quiet is like "aiding and abetting" when it comes to a crime... in this instance it is assisting with keeping the members "blind". Those of you in the know - you know who you are - come clean!!! Tell the truth once and for all!!!! You mention in the above" there one person who can can come forward and lay it all on the table personally". I would like to know how you know this and that this not just conjecture on your part.
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BrendaP		#13		[-]
Posts: 6692 07/06/2008 20:01 Administrator	bertie asks : You mention in the above" there one person who can can come forward and lay it all on the table personally". I would like to know how you know this and that this not just conjecture on your part. hmmmm bertie, this whole section of the NACBoard is "dedicated" to a particular person. Someone with whom I had many phone conversations, someone who shared all the info I posted here, with me. I give you 3, no 2.... no 1 guess who it might be!! It is NOT conjecture on my part that he CAN come forward. He CAN. What will be conjecture is if I said he MAY... because he hasn't done so yet and THAT is beyond my understanding. Still need more clues?
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deaconess	stepping back and coming forward	#14		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/07/2008 20:55 NAC Thorn in the Side	How WOULD someone "come forward"? With trumpets heralding the news? What would prompt leadership to change if they haven't taken steps already to do so? Threats of going public? What affect would that have on the innocent, trusting members? The image of trying to pick up the pieces of shattered souls... chards and fragments... would some of them ever be whole again? I spoke to my brother (who no longer attends) today about how I feel my mind is spinning out of control... how conflicted I am about truth... how obsessed I am with wanting it to be part of my church... wanting it to be the glue that holds the foundation together. He reminded me about the glue that holds so many souls together... that the church, and the love and comfort that they find there, to some is the ONLY thing that helps them get through a day in their miserable lives. He reminded me about Hazel and how much she loved our church. Hazel was a piece "fine china".... could I bear seeing "her" life crumble? For some people, faith in God, and how they've chosen to connect with and worship, is their one source of happiness. When I think of a soul being shattered if the truth came out, I think of Hazel and how that "truth" would have affected her. Certainly others faced with the dilemma of how to affect change... how to affect transparency... well.... they must see "faces", too. I understand the turmoil and how heart-wrenching it must be to KNOW something is wrong... but to openly make it right would hurt so many "Hazels". I want "Hazel" to be a face for others, too : Hazel had been a member of Pasadena congregation since the early 1960s. During that time, many members passed through the doors of our congregation. Many of them were children, who now have children of their own. Until her later years she never forgot anyone's birthday in Pasadena. Despite her meager income (she was a nanny), for the children and the young-at-heart she'd make home-baked cookies or brownies... some she'd find some special little trinket as a birthday gift. She didn't have much, yet she took such great joy in giving. In her later years she was haunted by a bit of paranoia. She no longer felt safe in her home, and we found her several times sleeping in her car in the church parking lot... a place that she felt was a refuge for her. It was only due to her illness that toward the end she wasn't at every single service. I brought her to our house when I visited her and found her on her front porch in a several times-over soiled nightgown. She was afraid to go in her home. Several days later, I called an ambulance when she was having trouble breathing and she was hospitalized... lung cancer and leukemia. Hazel's life WAS church...I don't think 2,000 therapists could ever have broken Hazel free of her obsession and indoctrination... I don't think there was one cell in her tiny 4'8" frame that didn't contain NAC DNA. Hazel grew up in South Africa. Her father had been a District Apostle. He disowned her for marrying someone that wasn't New Apostolic... a result of the father's strong belief in the exclusivity of the New Apostolic Church. Can you imagine living a life under such a condition? One of Hazel's brother committed suicide because their father didn't approve of his true-love, either. She spoke of how her father would make examples out of his children... one Sunday morning when they had returned home late the night before, he had them all come up to the front of the congregation and proceeded to lambaste them in front of the members.... yet, her bond with the church never suffered. Hazel's Danish husband, in search of a better life for his family, moved them to the United States. He didn't find the "better life", and abandoned Hazel and their daughter in the U.S. to fend for themselves. I think you can understand why she couldn't bring herself to return home... yet she continued to carry her Cape Town home in her heart. I can't recall a conversation with her where the topic of South Africa didn't come up... or her concern for her daughter and grandchildren who weren't part of the fellowship. She was consumed by grief, fearing for the worst.... Despite the ugly memories, she still sought refuge in the church when she had hit rock bottom. Our congregation became her "family". We kept Hazel's daughter apprised of her mom's condition and eventually she was able to make arrangements to have her moved to a convalescent hospital overlooking the ocean near her home. During the last month, her daughter would take her out for dinner... show her where she lived... let her sit on her front porch and watch the sun set... get to know her grandchildren... It's hard to describe the "peace" one could finally see in Hazel's demeanor. On Easter, she took Hazel to the local NAC for service. Hazel was surprised to find visitors from South Africa that she could reminesce about her old home with... Just a couple of days later, her daughter called us at 4 in the morning to let us know Hazel had passed. The daughter needed to talk, so we drove down to San Diego later that day. She invited us to go with her to a Buddhist meditation of the Dancing/Singing Bowls with her. Marlon and I took off our shoes... laid down on some mats and proceeded to be transported by our thoughts and a cacophony of bells, and gongs, and trickling water, and the sound of brass bowls that vibrated the marrow of my bones. It's odd where your mind can take you... but it felt like it was the very "music" of Hazel's life that I was experiencing. It started out so simple... tiny tinkling of bells... gradually increasing to this almost unbearable deluge of crashing and tones that made my ears rip in two... gradually diminishing to just soft bells and the sound of streams of water splashing into a bowl... peace... Her daughter remarked afterward how much she felt at peace... having resolved so many hurts in the final days with her mom... how she knew that she had closure in her life that if she had remained distant from her mom she wouldn't have had. She told me she was glad she made the difficult leap back into Hazel's life in the end... It was Hazel's daughter that decided to have her mom's funeral in our congregation... I don't think Hazel would have had that same peace if her precious church had crumbled.... So, what do you do as you look out upon a sea of "faces"? Would you attempt to fix things and try to do it quietly? CAN it be done "quietly"? I don't know... but... ? To what purpose would it serve to rip a belief system out from under people... for the New Apostolic Church to crumble? Would God love those souls MORE if they weren't New Apostolic and worshipped elsewhere? Would He be closer to them? I believe Hazel found God and connected with Him in the New Apostolic Church. I believe it was there she felt closest to Him. It would have been heartless to rob her of that peace and joy, if someone just jumped in and tore the church apart from top to bottom... ousting everyone left and right. I guess I've had heartless thoughts. I guess I've had heartless posts, because there's been many times I wanted to scream, "LET HER RIP!!!!!!!!" I think of the image of Jesus, crouched down... writing in the dust... maybe it was a "heart" he drew when he said to "go and sin no more"...? Would that message suffice if measures were taken to address and correct what was wrong, without sharing every last detail of past indiscretions with the members? Jesus commanded, "Ye who are without sin cast the first stone." I don't want to see leaders get pummelled. But, what would it take for them to "go and sin no more"? Who will ask them to do so? Their conscience? It hasn't convinced them yet. Who will convince them that it is the right thing to do? Will they only superficially "repent"... or will they change because they realize it is the right thing to do? Knowledge is power. Would someone use "knowledge" of events as leverage to evoke change? If so... what does that say about the character of the person making threats? Why would a church want fear of retribution to be the glue that holds its foundation together? Am I asking for the impossible for "love" to become that glue? Last Edited By: deaconess 07/07/2008 20:57. Edited 1 time.
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tripping 2007	steppin'	#15		[-]
Posts: 19 07/07/2008 22:15	Deaconess: I can't tell you how many times I have thought your very same thoughts. What will happen to this one or that one if they know of the ugly truth? My phrase instead of "Let it rip" is "Bring it on". I know that the truth could devastate many but I feel that the "Hazel's" or in my case it's the "Trudy's" of our congregation will not loose their faith or their joy in their church over anything; they will always smile and find the silver lining in every situtation. Many will say "It's the sign of the End Time" or "Even the Elect will fall" and just keep on going. I want to know the truth. Maybe selfishly because it would be my "way out" of the NAC. It is kind of like that old sticky band-aid that needs to be painfully ripped off the wound and exposed to the fresh air for the final stage of healing. Close your eyes. Grit your teeth. Yes! It's painful. Yes! It's needed. One, two three rrrriiiiipppp!
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Still Standing	Another perspective...	#16		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/08/2008 08:35	Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 19:04. Edited 5 times.
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deaconess	tribute to Michael Kraus	#17		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/08/2008 10:29 NAC Thorn in the Side	DOES Leber have all the details? DOES NAKI have all the details about Kraus? If so.... why did a TRIBUTE to Michael Kraus appear in the March 2008 issue of Our Family? Why would this man continue to be glorified?
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Still Standing	Well maybe it's because...	#18		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/08/2008 11:03	Tribute to Michael Kraus DOES Leber have all the details? DOES NAKI have all the details about Kraus? If so.... why did a TRIBUTE to Michael Kraus appear in the March 2008 issue of Our Family? Why would this man continue to be glorified? #1) Authoritarian The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers. This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadership is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that. #2) Image Conscious The abusive religious system is scrupulous to maintain an image of righteousness. The organization's history is often misrepresented in the effort to demonstrate the organization's special relationship to God. The mistaken judgments and character flaws of its leaders are denied or covered up in order to validate their authority. Impossibly high legalistic standards of thought and behavior may be imposed on the members. Their failure to live up to these standards is a constant reminder of the follower's inferiority to his leaders, and the necessity of submission to them. Abusive religion is, at heart, legalism. Abusive religion is also paranoid. Because the truth about the abusive religious system would be quickly rejected if recognized, outsiders are shown only a positive image of the group. This is rationalized by assuming that the religion would not be understood by "worldly" people; therefore they have no right to know. This attitude leads to members being secretive about some doctrines and the inner policies and procedures of the group. Leaders, especially, will keep secrets from their members. This secrecy is rooted in a basic distrust of others because the belief system is false and can not stand scrutiny. #3) Suppresses Criticism Because the religious system is not based on the truth it cannot allow questions, dissent, or open discussions about issues. The person who dissents becomes the problem rather than the issue he raised. The truth about any issue is settled and handed down from the top of the hierarchy. Questioning anything is considered a challenge to authority. Thinking for oneself is suppressed by pointing out that it leads to doubts. This is portrayed as unbelief in God and His anointed leaders. Thus the follower controls his own thoughts by fear of doubting God. http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3658/subtle.html A man is but a product of his thoughts. What he thinks, he becomes. ~ Mahatma Gandhi ~
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HelpMFTT	back and forth	#19		[-]
Posts: 178 07/08/2008 11:05	Deac: I was transported deep into my own thoughts and feelings as I read your post about Hazel. Your strong emotions ring loud and clear and I think we have all shared in all or part of them since joining this board. You have shown me a piece of you I didn't understand; how you can be so dedicated to the church, yet be so critical and forthright to the NAC leaders in questioning actions and the church itself. I guess fwhat I'm saying is that I hope I'm wrong every day and want the NAC to work for me in the worst way. With every fact, with every reminder of the past, with every conversation, I know this quite possibly is impossible. My Hazel days are long gone and once gone, can never be reclaimed. I personally don't want to be responsible for de-Hazel-izing anyone. 'Would God have loved Hazel more if she worshiped elsewhere' says it completely. I'm sure this is why people who 'know better' don't come forward. Abuse or no abuse, cult or no cult, we fight the fight for ourselves and those closest to us, and conversely have no right to 'rip-it' for anyone else who believes. Faith and Love are blind. I wish I didn't have such good vision at times.
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BrendaP		#20		[-]
Posts: 6692 07/08/2008 12:51 Administrator	we fight the fight for ourselves and those closest to us, and conversely have no right to 'rip-it' for anyone else who believes Are you saying corruption and fraud should remain concealed? I can understand that "faith and love are blind" when it comes to matters of doctrine and how even the perpetrators of corruption/fraud are "excused" with cliches like "God will deal with them one day"... To me the bottom line is and will remain : a church that proclaims itself to be the "end-time church" and the "continuation of Jesus' work" and holding the "keys to salvation" should be free of these elements. A church that conceals and covers up a dark history... well, is that how the God the members believe in, operates??? Even though there are the Hazels and the ministers who make a difference in some congregations, shouldn't it be each member's choice to make an informed opinion about the church where they choose to worship... a church with complete financial transparency, openess, no fraudulent aspects, compliance to the laws of the country, and everything else...? why did a TRIBUTE to Michael Kraus appear in the March 2008 issue of Our Family? perhaps because the church considers itself beyond any reproach. It is bargaining on the "silence of the faithful"... a result of successful indoctrination! And don't forget, the "financial generosity" of Michael Kraus. The members hear about free carpets, free food, free huts, free lots of things... they venerate him because they were not told that he spied on people, organized tragic accident/s for those who crossed his path, misused church money/offerings (including the Hazels of the church)... So yeah, they pay tribute to him because of the "hush puppies"... Is that the way it should be? Last Edited By: BrendaP 07/08/2008 19:56. Edited 2 times.
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