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"Some "fixing" that I personally feel is needed in this Church is its twisted and scripturally unsound doctine and policy; the lack of financial and historical transparency; Biblicly unjustified exclusivity; prejudice against women and gays; failure to repent and reconcile with victims of the Botschaft; continued self-promotion of apostolic authority with Christ taking second billing; arrogance of leadership in their unwillingness to respond to valid questions and concerns; leadership's pride that prevents them from admitting to and correcting their errors and inconsistencies, as well as correcting misconduct of fellow-servants..."

~ deaconess ~

Pretty much sums up the majority of reasons why the NACBoard exists...

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Questions for Steve and others

Author	Comment
HelpMFTT	back and forth	#21		[-]
Posts: 186 07/08/2008 13:47	Are you saying corruption and fraud should remain concealed? Brenda, I'm not saying that and it should not be concealed. I merely look as if it is my job to pee in someone's Wheaties when they are happy in the church; a smaller microcosm of the bigger picture. It is different when there are things like actual physical and mental abuse, but in the 'normal' congregation with substance-free services, apostle worship and going through the motions who am I to convince someone that Kraus was a good-for-nothing, etc. etc.when they thought he was a great leader? That doesn't preclude you or I to still make sure another Kraus doesn't happened again. If we could prove 'belief', this would all be so easy......
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BrendaP		#22		[-]
Posts: 6763 07/08/2008 14:06 Administrator	Brenda, I'm not saying that and it should not be concealed. I merely look as if it is my job to pee in someone's Wheaties when they are happy in the church; I get your point. On the other hand, here we have the NACBoard and we get given information.. we hear stories from current/ex/no-longer-attending-but-still-NAC members... we will continue to "publish" that which we get given the go-ahead to "publish". Should anyone come forward and provide us with factual documentation to substantiate information supplied, we will not hesitate to do whatever is necessary to get the church leadership to "set matters right"... be this by way of public apology / "opening" the books for all to see, or whatever.
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HelpMFTT		#23		[-]
Posts: 186 07/08/2008 14:22	agreed.
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klitzke		#24		[-]
Posts: 2144 07/08/2008 19:45 ezOP	So Kraus and his successors and various others could " pee in someone's Wheaties " ( quite few someone's if this board is any indication ) so I suppose any upset that would be caused will eventually be got over, just like many here have had to get over getting their Wheaties peed in. Life is change, people adapt. Last Edited By: klitzke 07/08/2008 19:47. Edited 1 time.
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deaconess	a calling	#25		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/09/2008 00:10 NAC Thorn in the Side	Steve called to answer my initial questions and to try to put my heart at ease to his best ability... assuring me that "ALL" would be taken care of. I believe him. (I must send him some cigars!!!! )
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lost		#26		[-]
Posts: 2199 07/09/2008 08:31 High Priestess	Since the original questions where posted here on the board to Steve and he called to answer them, are you able to answer them here for us to read also?
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Trike Troll	Bad advice, no matter, he got caught.	#27		[-]
Posts: 1913 07/09/2008 08:46 Scourge of God	Are you saying corruption and fraud should remain concealed? In the Bible with the broadloom article it mentions. After accepting what experts later termed "poor financial advice" the district apostle was convicted and fined $17,500 in 1971 for evading income tax on $41,911 unreported income. Kraus Carpet Mills LTD was also fined $5,000 for evading income taxes on $27,593 unreported income the same year. Both fines related to income not reported in 1965 and 1966. Al Capone went down the same way Google NAC Botschaft...with 1-4-5
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klitzke		#28		[-]
Posts: 2144 07/09/2008 09:02 ezOP	If Steve is relying on Leber to straighten all this out, then I'm not holding my breath for a good outcome, see Leber's handling of the Botschaft issue in the past several months. Working through official NAC channels will just keep all these issues buried and invisible to most members, does Steve hope to return to his former glorious status and position in the NAC by doing this as opposed to just laying all the facts and materials out in the open for all to see and judge? If an investigation based on Steve's info was in the works and there was any official interest in correcting past wrongdoing, why the glorification of Kraus in the recent Our Family issue. Last Edited By: klitzke 07/09/2008 09:07. Edited 1 time.
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deaconess	Glorification	#29		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/09/2008 09:31 NAC Thorn in the Side	an excerpt from the last paragraph in March 2008 Our Family's tribute to Michael Kraus: On 16 November 2003 District Apostle Kraus died at the age of 95. During the funeral service, Chief Apostle Fehr described him as teh "Paul of the twentieth century". I see your point, Ken! It is VERY odd that the church would put it in black and white at this point -- equating Kraus with Paul -- if their is ANY interest at all in distancing the church from him. It would seem -- based on the fact that a tribute was published -- that they don't see anything wrong with what Kraus did to the church in North America... what he did with church money. The Our Family article is paired with a full page picture of Kraus. In very large letters on the bottom right-hand corner it says, "Lord, let Your work prosper!" I think they left off the tag on that.....
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lost		#30		[-]
Posts: 2199 07/09/2008 10:28 High Priestess	Since there have been problems with posts, I will repeat my previous post. Since the original questions where posted here on the board to Steve and he called to answer them, are you able to answer them here for us to read also? Will the rest of the readers be able to know the answers to the questions that were asked of Steve?
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deaconess	answers	#31		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/09/2008 13:27 NAC Thorn in the Side	Hi lost. After speaking with Steve, I believe he does have a heart and that he does care for all of God's children. I believe he does have a conscience. But, I also believe he has full trust in the counsel he received from Chief Apostle Urwyler, and that the same "trust" continued with Fehr and Leber. He believes the Lord will deal with it in His time. He is willing to be a "tool" in that process if called upon by the ministry that he truly respects. He sincerely believes it will be dealt with by the Lord in His time. That is his faith.... and trust. That is probably not the answer(s) you were looking for. I know it didn't answer the following for me from my initial inquiry, because Kraus' and subsequent administration's abuse of power continued long after Pathmann knew what he knew: What can you say to "me"... who unknowingly in the 1980s and 1990s continued to support the church financially... who lifted my still young children up high enough to drop their coins in.... who wheeled my grandparents up to the box... who taught children in Sunday School about offering... but never realized, understood, or taught the Biblical lesson of "stewardship"? I think about Jesus' "Woe's" to the Scribes and Pharisees, and His loud disdain for secrets behind closed doors. I don't understand why the Chief Apostles haven't had that same disdain. IF Leber is taking action... it must be taking place behind closed doors. IF it is being handled behind closed doors... perhaps Leber is experiencing some of the same inner conflicts that I previously expressed as he too sees many, many "faces". Josua Swartz Truth without charity is often intolerant and even persecuting, as charity without truth is weak in concession and untrustworthy in judgments. --But charity, loyal to truth and rejoicing in it, has the wisdom of the serpent with the harmlessness of the dove.
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lost		#32		[-]
Posts: 2199 07/09/2008 14:12 High Priestess	Thanks deac. I would have to agree with Ken at this point. I thought maybe, just maybe, all could be "cleaned" up in the very near future, however, that hope diminished quickly. The cover ups and abuse will, unfortunately, continue. The longer the wait, the more time will pass, and no one will be around to really, really tell the truth and the truth will continue to be buried deeper and deeper. How sad. How very, very sad. Last Edited By: lost 07/09/2008 14:41. Edited 1 time.
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BrendaP		#33		[-]
Posts: 6763 07/09/2008 14:32 Administrator	I would have to agree with Ken at this point. I thought maybe, just maybe, all could be "cleaned" up in the very near future, however, that hope diminished quickly. The cover ups and abuse will, unfortunately, continue. The longer the wait, the more time will pass, and no one will be around to really, really tell the truth and the truth will be continue to be buried deeper and deeper. How sad. How very, very sad. Don't give up hope too soon. If it depends on me as an individual, I am going to do my best to do whatever it takes to bring everything I know (and what can be substantiated) out into the open. I am not sure yet how to go about it, but as time goes by, the answers will come. Perhaps there are many of our board participants who will help with a "going public" effort.
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lost		#34		[-]
Posts: 2199 07/09/2008 14:40 High Priestess	Don't give up hope too soon. If it depends on me as an individual, I am going to do my best to do whatever it takes to bring everything I know (and what can be substantiated) out into the open. I am not sure yet how to go about it, but as time goes by, the answers will come. Perhaps there are many of our board participants who will help with a "going public" effort. Count me in!!!!!!!!
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BrendaP		#35		[-]
Posts: 6763 07/09/2008 14:56 Administrator	We can discuss it over a glass of wine... soon!!
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bertiesb		#36		[-]
Posts: 1091 07/09/2008 15:03 May Contain Traces Of Nut.	lost wrote: Don't give up hope too soon. If it depends on me as an individual, I am going to do my best to do whatever it takes to bring everything I know (and what can be substantiated) out into the open. I am not sure yet how to go about it, but as time goes by, the answers will come. Perhaps there are many of our board participants who will help with a "going public" effort. Count me in!!!!!!!! That is all I asked for a few days ago ,not heresay but actual facts and figures.Not hid in the shadows but out in the open where the light of truth shines.
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lost		#37		[-]
Posts: 2199 07/09/2008 15:06 High Priestess	BrendaP wrote: We can discuss it over a glass of wine... soon!! It would be my pleasure, my dear. But we may need several bottles of wine.
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deaconess	mortar and strands	#38		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/09/2008 20:15 NAC Thorn in the Side	Kraus arrived in this country "with only a dime" in his pocket.... how much more he had to leave behind when he left this earth! Is my offering through the years the mortar on one of our church buildings? Or, is it presently being walked all over as a strand of yarn in a carpet? (I know it wasn't used for pure charity.)
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BrendaP		#39		[-]
Posts: 6763 07/09/2008 20:35 Administrator	Is my offering through the years the mortar on one of our church buildings? Or, is it presently being walked all over as a strand of yarn in a carpet? And what about the offerings of the "Hazels" in the church? Those who went to such extra lengths to show their love and devotion? It makes one sick to think that innocent people were/are "spiritually abused"... "God will deal with it in His time". When is "His time"? When the "storm in a teacup" has subsided and people no longer care and once again the church gets away with it all and the Hazels of this world continue giving their hard-earned offerings faithfully?
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klitzke		#40		[-]
Posts: 2144 07/09/2008 20:39 ezOP	deaconess wrote: Kraus arrived in this country "with only a dime" in his pocket.... how much more he had to leave behind when he left this earth! Is my offering through the years the mortar on one of our church buildings? Or, is it presently being walked all over as a strand of yarn in a carpet? (I know it wasn't used for pure charity.) Maybe it's Nelson's Mercedes or 36 Colony Lane, Manhasset, NY
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