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"Some "fixing" that I personally feel is needed in this Church is its twisted and scripturally unsound doctine and policy; the lack of financial and historical transparency; Biblicly unjustified exclusivity; prejudice against women and gays; failure to repent and reconcile with victims of the Botschaft; continued self-promotion of apostolic authority with Christ taking second billing; arrogance of leadership in their unwillingness to respond to valid questions and concerns; leadership's pride that prevents them from admitting to and correcting their errors and inconsistencies, as well as correcting misconduct of fellow-servants..."

~ deaconess ~

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Questions for Steve and others

Author	Comment
morse2000	Wow	#41		[-]
Posts: 667 07/09/2008 20:40 NAC Inspector	Deaconees said: Hazel grew up in South Africa. Her father had been a District Apostle. He disowned her for marrying someone that wasn't New Apostolic... a result of the father's strong belief in the exclusivity of the New Apostolic Church. Can you imagine living a life under such a condition? One of Hazel's brother committed suicide because their father didn't approve of his true-love, either. She spoke of how her father would make examples out of his children... one Sunday morning when they had returned home late the night before, he had them all come up to the front of the congregation and proceeded to lambaste them in front of the members.... yet, her bond with the church never suffered. I was floored when I read this. This man was a DA? This is disgusting beyond words. Between Kraus and this guy, is being an SOB part of the job qualifications for DA? If only someone had stood up and reformed the church before this guy became a DA. Then maybe Hazel would have lived a life that did not have so much suffering. While it is true that reform may hurt some innocents, it will spare so many more in the future. Morse
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HelpMFTT	you're all wrong....	#42		[-]
Posts: 186 07/09/2008 20:59	.... its in India and Africa.
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Ed Banger		#43		[-]
Posts: 2340 07/10/2008 04:04 Redneck Bishop	When is "His time"? When the "storm in a teacup" has subsided and people no longer care and once again the church gets away with it all and the Hazels of this world continue giving their hard-earned offerings faithfully? SSDD...the same crap all over...just like the Botchedshaft thingee. Ifin we ignore it, it will go away. The only really respectable Protestants are the fundamentalists. Unfortunately, they are also palpable idiots. H.L. Mencken
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Still Standing	Misplaced trust	#44		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/10/2008 08:11	He sincerely believes it will be dealt with by the Lord in His time. That is his faith.... and trust. Therein lies the problem... Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:54. Edited 1 time.
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deaconess	assets	#45		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/10/2008 08:45 NAC Thorn in the Side	A letter I received from Richard C. Freund August 7, 2006 Dear Gayle, To answer your question concerning what the assets and specific investments of the New Apostolic Church of North America/Canada prior to the split were, is an enormous undertaking and I am not certain that I have all the information. Since our Chief Apostle has not chosen to go public with this information concerning NAKI or other entities, neither shall I. The division between the two districts was simple. Whatever assets and investments were in the USA and Canada respectively stayed in those countries. This was not difficult since the countries were kept separate financially and administratvely prior to the split. Neither Chief Apostle Fehr nor any representative of NAKI served as intermediary at that time. I have no idea why the Illinois Secretary of State has not updated the information which we have supplied him/her. That question would better be directed to that office. Sincerely, Richard C. Freund RCF/jso Richard C. Freund, Vice-President of the National Organization of the New Apostolic Church of North America 1998-2001, President 2002-present states the following: To answer your question concerning what the assets and specific investments of the New Apostolic Church of North America/Canada prior to the split were, is an enormous undertaking and I am not certain that I have all the information. So.... who DID have all of the information so that the split could take place? Don't you need to know what you have before you can divide it?
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deaconess	Another tribute to Kraus	#46		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/12/2008 08:42 NAC Thorn in the Side	an excerpt from the last paragraph in March 2008 Our Family's tribute to Michael Kraus: On 16 November 2003 District Apostle Kraus died at the age of 95. During the funeral service, Chief Apostle Fehr described him as the "Paul of the twentieth century". That was from his funeral service... What about Kraus' retirement service? The Chief Apostle Fehr chose to use an excerpt for Kraus' retirement service textword: 2 Corinthians 11:2 ...For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy. DID the Chief Apostle realize the context of what was selected? If so, was it a deliberate "dig" to use a text that originates in Paul's withering denunciation of false apostles? *Quote:* 2Cr 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in [my] folly: and indeed bear with me. 2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]. 2Cr 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. 2Cr 11:6 But though [I be] rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. 2Cr 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? 2Cr 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service. 2Cr 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself]. 2Cr 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 2Cr 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. 2Cr 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2Cr 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 2Cr 11:17 That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 2Cr 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 2Cr 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye [yourselves] are wise. 2Cr 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour [you], if a man take [of you], if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face. 2Cr 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also. 2Cr 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so [am] I. Are they Israelites? so [am] I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so [am] I. 2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one. 2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 2Cr 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren; 2Cr 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 2Cr 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 2Cr 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
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Still Standing		#47		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/12/2008 09:13	DID the Chief Apostle realize the context of what was selected? If so, was it a deliberate "dig" to use a text that originates in Paul's withering denunciation of false apostles? Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:55. Edited 1 time.
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Still Standing		#48		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/12/2008 21:03	He sincerely believes it will be dealt with by the Lord in His time. That is his faith.... and trust. That is probably not the answer(s) you were looking for. I know it didn't answer the following for me from my initial inquiry, because Kraus' and subsequent administration's abuse of power continued long after Pathmann knew what he knew: IF Leber is taking action... it must be taking place behind closed doors. Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:56. Edited 2 times.
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Still Standing	Silence is an answer...	#49		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/17/2008 06:40	Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:57. Edited 2 times.
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deaconess	Water Closet Doors	#50		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/17/2008 08:23 NAC Thorn in the Side	StillStanding IF Leber is taking action... it must be taking place behind closed doors. So even if action is taking place behind closed doors, how will that be any different than what has been going on for decades? If one continues to try to solve a problem using the same failed methodology over and over again, why is one surprised with the same outcome? Unless one is willing to open the closed doors and windows, the light will never enter the room. Unless one is willing to open the closed doors and windows, the light will never enter the room. ... and unless one opens the door, the stench inside remains. Last Edited By: deaconess 07/17/2008 08:46. Edited 1 time.
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klitzke		#51		[-]
Posts: 2144 07/17/2008 09:24 ezOP	Parable text from the Gospel of Matthew For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - (King James Version) So what's up Steve, are you burying the talents (info) God gave to you or are you using them to make his work grow and improve?
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deaconess	Air Supply	#52		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/17/2008 10:15 NAC Thorn in the Side	Just thinking about "stench" and questioning why someone wouldn't rush to open that door... 1. Maybe that "individual" has lost their sense of smell 2. Perhaps they've never experienced fresh air... so aren't even aware of the "stench".
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Still Standing		#53		[-]
Posts: 1211 07/17/2008 10:23	Just thinking about "stench" and questioning why someone wouldn't rush to open that door... 1. Maybe that "individual" has lost their sense of smell 2. Perhaps they've never experienced fresh air... so aren't even aware of the "stench". Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:57. Edited 2 times.
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deaconess	Why is there silence	#54		[-]
Posts: 7442 07/17/2008 11:12 NAC Thorn in the Side	It's quite possible that your thoughts and other's pains are drowned out at the moment by the sound of boats and jet skis racing across a lake....
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deaconess	Another question for Steve	#55		[-]
Posts: 7442 08/05/2008 12:42 NAC Thorn in the Side	Previously posted by peaches : peaches Posts: 27 (8/30/04 15:03) Reply Clarification -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Deaconess &Plcomp;Again,sorry for the delayed answers,Im only the typist on this one today:I was asked to please mention on Steve's behalf the following:1.The present Dist. Leaders of Chicago are from (for the most part)after the damage was done.The Dist.Elder over the congregation Steve goes to is really an honest good guy,that he likes very much.Most of those responsible the old Bishop,Dist.Leaders that were in this Bishops pocket(Bishop was best Buddie of W.Vovak and moved from Motown to Chicago)are gone now and I think that some even of them their eyes have been opened,so please don't feel bitter towards them. One even apologized for following blindly and being a part of it all.Again,you are what you eat,they got fed alot and remember who was doing the cooking.2. About going to another church;I never once had a desire to go else where,"home is where the heart is"and from my experience "theres no place like home".Yes,I was contacted by MANY of the factions that broke away from NAC-Rockenfelder etc. I don't know how they got my name even .But I never responded to their offers.I don't judge any of them either,why they left is between them and God.I do realize there are many wonderful churches out there too and I respect them for their good works,again their futures are between them and God.As for me and my family we had the WOL and Sunday school-confirmation all at home.We had a little box for offerings and once a month they were sent to Switzerland.3.Brenda mentioned the Apostle Arie Boer,we spoke at least once a week for over 10 years ,as was mentioned I and two other benched priests went to Australia for his funeral .He was a great teacher in forbearance,love and Loyalty to the Lord as manifested in Christs teachings in the NAC.I never could of carried it all without his support & teaching and other great souls in this the work of the Lord.Thank-you SP Steve, why did you feel the need to send your offerings to Switzerland? Why not have them included with the offerings made in the U.S. and Canadian congregations? If you truly believed God would bless it... why were you "moved" to forward your offerings elsewhere? If it was important for YOU to not contribute your offering locally... why wouldn't it have been important for all the other members in our district not to do so either? Are you still walking past your local offeratory?
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deaconess	Paul shares some thoughts....	#56		[-]
Posts: 7442 08/05/2008 14:22 NAC Thorn in the Side	Ephesians 4 : 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Ephesians 4 : 14 -16 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Until the truth is spoken... and spoken in love.. this work will remain disjointed and stunted.
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Still Standing		#57		[-]
Posts: 1211 08/07/2008 08:45	As for me and my family we had the WOL and Sunday school-confirmation all at home.We had a little box for offerings and once a month they were sent to Switzerland.3.Brenda mentioned the Apostle Arie Boer,we spoke at least once a week for over 10 years Last Edited By: Still Standing 08/02/2009 18:58. Edited 3 times.
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deaconess	eyes	#58		[-]
Posts: 7442 08/15/2008 14:56 NAC Thorn in the Side	Steve quoted Chief Apostle Urwyler as saying that "The eye of the Lord sees everything." Rockenfelder preached: According to Revelation 3:18, the Lord said: "I counsel thee...to annoint thine eyes with eyesalve." Why? So that we see things in a godly way. The highest level of understanding is to be able to see things as the Lord sees them. Why would the Lord allow one to see things, unless there was a purpose in their knowing? Previously a comment was made that Chief Apostle Urwyler's hands were tied because Kraus had full control of all of the church's assets. I believe Urwyler used that as an excuse not to address the problem. ANY legal counsel would have told Urwyler that the papers that Kraus had the rectors sign could easily have been nullified using the arguments of them having signed under duress, as well as there having been undue influence in the process. What I'd like to know is what happened to the "eyes" that saw Kraus push Boer down the stairs? What kind of person... having witnessed that or having knowledge of it... would leave that man in charge of soul care????
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deaconess	Loaning & Borrowing	#59		[-]
Posts: 7442 08/16/2008 15:41 NAC Thorn in the Side	from Michael Kraus' October 29, 1991 letter addressed to Apostles, District Rectors & Rectors ....There is one more point which I would like to mention. For over sixty years of my New Apostolic life it has always been against the law of the New Apostolic Church for the members to borrow from or loan money one to the other. Would you please announce this from behind the altar and support it in the future. This loaning and borrowing has brought a lot of trouble and anomosity amongst those who were engaged in it.... Kraus preaches against members borrowing money from each other.... but he fails to criticize "members" borrowing money from the church....
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