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My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

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July 27, 2009

Dear Chief Apostle Leber:

In the July 2009 Divine Service Guide Special Edition, the following statement is made:

"The preaching ministers and the congregation are surrounded by something mysterious which we cannot grasp rationally. Only by our faith can we recognise that God is present and that it is He who serves His congregation. The divine service mystery endures all the way to the "Amen" of the closing prayer. It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him. This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod. The divine mystery will ultimately be revealed when we are united with the Lord for all eternity."

"It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him."

Should it rather be the lofty task of the minister to let the congregation feel oneness with Christ, instead of man? Why would they preach any other kind of unity?

"This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod."

Isn't it unity with Christ and the knowledge of the grace offered through Christ's sacrifice that imparts "certainty and courage for the path of faith"? It is the concept of the necessity of unity with an apostle and a middle man that contributes to the public perception of the New Apostolic Church being a cult. It is the apostles' continued self-promotion -- at the expense of focusing all attention and worship towards Christ -- that justifies the New Apostolic Church being considered a cult by the Christian community. Why does our church literature continue to add fuel to those thoughts? Why do the prayers of the officiants at the opening of services continue to ask for unity with their bearer of blessing -- as opposed to with Christ? Is it... or is it not a Christ-centered church? If the NAC is Christ-centered, shouldn't its leaders see to it that the focus is on Christ at all times? Shouldn't the prayers as well as the ministering reflect that?

With love,

Gayle Theilacker
Los Angeles Central Congregation

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

Religion forces attention away from life and forces people into a preoccupation with the concept of salvation. According to NAC doctrine the Plan of Salvation is not a mystery but explained in detail in the bible. If there is nothing mysterious about it, then how can "preaching" about it suddenly make it "mysterious"? The witch of Endor had a clear message for Saul when he asked after her mysteries. 1+1=2. There is nothing mysterious about that equation. There is also nothing mysterious about god or the way it works. This sounds like a re-branding of a product which is showing a decline in market share. A kind of "New Improved". No longer just salvation. It now has mystery as part of its ingredients. A kind of monosodium glutamate?

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

Two post go up at the same time.
One, regarding the "mystery" which wafts around a divine service.
The other, regarding more irrelevant rules.
Take a guess which post has had the most replies so far?
The answer speaks volumes. I think. :-)

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

deaconess wrote:
July 27, 2009

Dear Chief Apostle Leber:

No Gayle. You are making too fine a discrimination here. If the serving ministry is truly in oneness with the prompting of the "mysterious" Holy Spirit while he serves, then the goal of listeners, even those other serving ministries sitting in the wings and in their own turn perhaps serving behind the altar, is to be in "oneness" with the one serving. That makes the serving persons and all the listeners in "oneness", as the "Body of Christ", with the "mystery" of the Holy Spirit (promised by Christ) expressing Itself through a mere human...

I remember Apostle Wagner once saying, that he "knew" when he had that "oneness" - not discriminating between oneness with the one serving or Holy Spirit behind their words - because he found himself thinking what was going to be said, almost before it was said, in a sort of "deja vu" fashion.

I have served behind that altar, and I know absolutely that I was often aware of scripture, and had thoughts about that and other relevant things, that were not "my" thoughts and perspectives and insights. And the clarity I experienced at those times, and the way scripture seemed to "open up" and seem "clear" to me... all that would fade after I left the altar, and my own limited intelligence took over.
I always found that... mysterious. And humbling.
And even if I have concerns with a policy within the Church, of Apostle exclusivity (your other thread thus being better), I will not deny that experience, because I experienced it as undeniably real.

That doesn't mean you or anyone else has to believe it, but I believe that is consistent with what the Chief Apostle is saying in this instance. And to that degree, I think your issue is on a false footing, in this case.

RF

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

refracted, I disagree with your disagreement.

There is no fine distinction. The NAC leadership consistently points to oneness with the apostles and bearers of blessing, neglecting to instruct that true oneness is only achieved through unity with Christ. Countless examples have been posted on the NACBoard substantiating that, including Freund's criticism of brothers that were focusing too much on Christ, that the pendulum had swung too far in that direction so that apostles were no longer mentioned. Another glaring example was Freund's sermon in which he spoke of wanting to know the heart of the Chief Apostle... never once mentioning Christ.... ministers preaching how they wish to emulate their B.O.B. and thus imperfect men. This is the "unity" and focus that continues to be preached to the members, due to the fact that the Divine Service Guides continue to advocate the preaching of that message by including it in sermon preparation material. This is the unity that is achieved when apostles are viewed as indispensable... that somehow unity with Christ is unachievable without them. I believe that is the intent of the message conveyed in the article: without the commission of the apostle one cannot feel the divine "mystery" at work... and it is the assurance of the "certainty" that they have apostles to be united with that strengthens the members.

Veils torn asunder.

Unity with Christ... or unity with Christ only through apostles and those united with them?

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

refrakted.

I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form. Things are said and ideas are brought forth which would not normally pop up in the mind of the speaker. The NAC is not wrong when it asks for a thorough preparation before taking a service. Native Americans had the Sun Dance, similar to many other cultures the world over. They prepared beforehand, did not eat during the ceremony (sometimes lasting many days) and received their visions from it. Only difference is, I cannot see any of the NAC BoB's willingly participate in such preparation as the The Arapaho, Arikara, Asbinboine, Cheyenne, Crow, Gros, Ventre, Hidutsa, Sioux, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibway, Sarasi, Omaha, Ponca, Ute, Shoshone, Kiowa, and Blackfoot tribes, did. I do not believe there is anything mysterious about it at all.

Ooops, forgot about the Blackfeet. :-)

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

Finch wrote: I do not believe there is anything mysterious about it at all.

Well, it was mysterious to me.

Deaconess: Perhaps I'm nit-picking, just because the quotes you provided didn't include the wosd "indispensable".
I've already come to terms with the fact that Finch is righter about my state of mind at the altar and at service, than I find many others at the NAC altar truly seem to have. Some were even "awful", and i had trouble listening to them, because the same thing that made me "sure" at the altar, made me sure they were NOT coming from the same "spirit" (I use that as a qualified term) as me.
I remember asking BatP once, if he had considered that perhaps there once "had been" a true impulse from the Spirit of God, in the NAC; and that perhaps it has "moved on".
It appears that God gave us free will, and if so then it is not beyond possibility that the Holy Spirit goes, where it is most welcome; rather than as many seem to want It to, "making" people conform to its presence.
Somewhere it says, my sheep will hear my voice; and if so, they should follow, where that voice leads them - irrespective of what a particular church hierarchy says.
I think. (Just my thoughts.)
RF

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

...RF...I'm not sure, at this perspective, I would call it a true impulse from the spirit. I, too, was a priest. I can say I experienced something similar to what you describe, but I think it was an emotional state, not a divine one. I felt "full of the spirit", but, who knows. When I was able to prepare "properly", I felt enabled to serve. But truth be told, I had mostly formed a sermon in my mind. I had rolled it around in my head, I had observed the objections and reformulated the sermon to be the best I could present. All the while feeling it was inspired. But that was from that perspective at that time. In hindsight, I believe it was woo and emotion. In other words, nothing divine, nothing mysterious, nothing insincere.

I don't doubt, men of the NAC believe the spirit exercises itself within the church, but I'm not the least bit convinced of it. However, I do know some wonderful caring servants in the church who are a credit to the faith, however misguided the faith may be.

My Recent Posts · 07/28/2009

Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the "mystery meat" was that we were served at the Day of Youth in the 1970s?

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form.

Just as an aside: pastors in other denominations do not only burn lamp oil at night to prepare a sermon. They also research the old texts and try to understand the meaning of a Bible text for the upcoming service to interpret it in a way which is suitable for the congregation and are praying as they do that. Maybe not all of them. Sometimes one could get the feeling that some NAC ministers think that they are the only ones who sincerely prepare for a service.

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

GerGuest001 wrote:

I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form.

Just as an aside: pastors in other denominations do not only burn lamp oil at night to prepare a sermon. They also research the old texts and try to understand the meaning of a Bible text for the upcoming service to interpret it in a way which is suitable for the congregation and are praying as they do that. Maybe not all of them. Sometimes one could get the feeling that some NAC ministers think that they are the only ones who sincerely prepare for a service.

As did the Arapaho, Arikara, Asbinboine, Cheyenne, Crow, Gros, Ventre, Hidutsa, Sioux, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibway, Sarasi, Omaha, Ponca, Ute, Shoshone, Kiowa, and Blackfoot tribes in America. It is practiced by many cultures the world over and has been "the way" for thousands of years already whenever mankind need to cross the threshold of the spirit. Many NAC BoB's could learn from any one of the tribes above.

Geeesshh man. I keep forgetting the Blackfeet.

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

deaconess wondered:

Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the "mystery meat" was that we were served at the Day of Youth in the 1970s?

I remember this subject being discussed at length during the long bus ride home. No one ever really knew but we had many ideas: gorilla, horse and yak always topped the list. Do you remember how we were herded into the dining hall by the KC gestapo?
IKW

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

Geeesshh man. I keep forgetting the Blackfeet.

Reminds me of tar heels.

The point I was trying to make is the perception in the NAC about service preparations in other denominations. Preparation with different texts, parallels from the Bible, theological literature, dictionaries and encyclopedias (except "We looked it up in the dictionary and it means 'the divine will'") are not worth as much as the words "inspired by the HS" at the time they are uttered. OK, has the NAC ever considered that these ministers might also be earnestly praying? But then ChAp Leber said in Magdeburg in a service on 2006-Sep-24

Auszug aus dem GD, Magdeburg, 24.09.06:

Es gibt manche Versuche durchaus ernsthafter Natur, dem lieben Gott zu dienen, die aber nicht auf dieser Grundlage der Wiedergeburt aus Wasser und Geist erfolgen. Und dann sind sie zum Scheitern verurteilt!

My translation:
There are manifold attempts of a certainly earnest nature to serve our good God; but they are not based on the rebirth from water and spirit. And then they are doomed to fail!

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

"It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him."

Lofty indeed! more of a juggling act if you ask me. It sounds like a flowery speech from an aspiring Colombian cartel boss in an attempt to legitimize his takeover.

Provide the NACindo, get them hooked and bring me the money...with 1-4-5

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

Of course, you are so right when you speak of the preparation done by spiritual leaders all over the world where great depth is gone into and lots of spiritual wrestling goes into it. The result of all that preparation is obvious when they deliver their sermon. However, as the chief apostle says; it's all in vain. Pity that. :-( If only these other clergy would become New Apostolic, with all their knowledge of the scriptures, they may even be asked to help out in the Sunday School or in the garden. Doomed to fail has also got much darker connotations, has it not?

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

Finch wrote:
Doomed to fail has also got much darker connotations, has it not?

Yes. That is also a reason why the statement has caused criticism. "Doomed to fail, except ..." is simply another example for INDISPENSABLE.

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

Back to mystery meat.

What is it that the members are being served? Who IS the master chef... man or God?

Without a commission and connection to their apostle, the substance of the minister's sermon is questionable... and would take away the certainty of the listener that they are on the right path? Can a "restaurant" only attain an "A" rating if it has apostles... "A" being for apostles?

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

In the July 2009 Divine Service Guide Special Edition, the following statement is made:

"The preaching ministers and the congregation are surrounded by something mysterious which we cannot grasp rationally. Only by our faith can we recognise that God is present and that it is He who serves His congregation. The divine service mystery endures all the way to the "Amen" of the closing prayer. It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him. This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod. The divine mystery will ultimately be revealed when we are united with the Lord for all eternity."

If one refers to the following excerpts from Chief Apostle's sermon in Uganda that is featured the July 2009 Our Family, the infererance of the above is better understood:

..."We stand on a rock. Remember that Jesus said to Peter: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hades shall not prevail against" (Matthew 16:18 ). We as the congregation stand on the rock. As long as we are in contact with it, we are strong and can defeat the devil, in fact, all the other spirits. But the moment we lose contact to this rock, when other spirits manage to disrupt this connection, we immediately become weak. We will no longer be blessed. Our faith will weaken and disappear and we will not be able to feel the love of christ any more. That is why it is so important that our footing on this rock is firm, that we are connected with the Chief Apostle and with the Apostles, and attend divine services as often as possible. If we go our own way and lose touch with this rock we will lose our strength. Thus weakened we fall victim to the whims of the spirits.

For this reason, I want to lay the following message into your hearts: Stay on the rock, firmly connected to the Apostle ministry. Don't allow yourselves to be disconnected from it, for then we would lose the strength we need to become worthy for the day of the Lord. Let us be resolved to stand on the rock and to remain there and not to allow any spirits to disrupt this connection...

...Are we true to our calling? If this is so, we will always see a connection to the Apostle ministry, will attend services regularly and endeavour to do our share in the work of God.

It says here that we are called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ. Let us remain with the ambassadors of the Lord and have fellowship with them. Let us have confidence in them. Let us trust them, for then God can bless us abundantly. I am happy to say that you have shown confidence and trust in your leaders. And i ask you to have confidence in your future leader. Let us always see the Apostles as servants of God, who have been sent by Him. God called them and they accepted. If we remain in fellowship with them, we will be blessed and be led to the goal of our faith, the day of the Lord...."

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

refrakted: was what you felt at the Altar from your connection with Christ or your connection with an Apostle? If you truely served in the corrrect mind-set, your feelings came DIRECTLY from the trinity.

Deac: Based on the OF article, who is the Rock? The NAC or Christ? Interesting that the Chief never makes that last connection.

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

Gosh. Am I understanding this right? :-)

Our faith turns this "something mysterious" into God?

Without belief in the apostles -

We immediately become weak and will not be blessed?

We will not be able to feel the love of Christ anymore?

We will become weak and fall victim to the whims of the spirits?

We will lose the strength we need to become worthy for the day of the Lord?

We will not be blessed abundantly by God?

and...

When we have fellowship with the apostles we have fellowship with Christ?

and lastly...

We must always see the apostles as servants of god?

My Recent Posts · 07/29/2009

contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult

I don't think the NAC is perceived as a cult, I believe it is a cult and so do many, many others.

Author	Comment
deaconess	contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult		Lead	[-]
Posts: 7280 07/28/2009 01:38 NAC Thorn in the Side	Tags : None July 27, 2009 Dear Chief Apostle Leber: In the July 2009 Divine Service Guide Special Edition, the following statement is made: "The preaching ministers and the congregation are surrounded by something mysterious which we cannot grasp rationally. Only by our faith can we recognise that God is present and that it is He who serves His congregation. The divine service mystery endures all the way to the "Amen" of the closing prayer. It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him. This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod. The divine mystery will ultimately be revealed when we are united with the Lord for all eternity." "It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him." Should it rather be the lofty task of the minister to let the congregation feel oneness with Christ, instead of man? Why would they preach any other kind of unity? "This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod." Isn't it unity with Christ and the knowledge of the grace offered through Christ's sacrifice that imparts "certainty and courage for the path of faith"? It is the concept of the necessity of unity with an apostle and a middle man that contributes to the public perception of the New Apostolic Church being a cult. It is the apostles' continued self-promotion -- at the expense of focusing all attention and worship towards Christ -- that justifies the New Apostolic Church being considered a cult by the Christian community. Why does our church literature continue to add fuel to those thoughts? Why do the prayers of the officiants at the opening of services continue to ask for unity with their bearer of blessing -- as opposed to with Christ? Is it... or is it not a Christ-centered church? If the NAC is Christ-centered, shouldn't its leaders see to it that the focus is on Christ at all times? Shouldn't the prayers as well as the ministering reflect that? With love, Gayle Theilacker Los Angeles Central Congregation
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Finch		#1		[-]
Posts: 461 07/28/2009 05:04	Religion forces attention away from life and forces people into a preoccupation with the concept of salvation. According to NAC doctrine the Plan of Salvation is not a mystery but explained in detail in the bible. If there is nothing mysterious about it, then how can "preaching" about it suddenly make it "mysterious"? The witch of Endor had a clear message for Saul when he asked after her mysteries. 1+1=2. There is nothing mysterious about that equation. There is also nothing mysterious about god or the way it works. This sounds like a re-branding of a product which is showing a decline in market share. A kind of "New Improved". No longer just salvation. It now has mystery as part of its ingredients. A kind of monosodium glutamate?
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Finch		#2		[-]
Posts: 461 07/28/2009 16:45	Two post go up at the same time. One, regarding the "mystery" which wafts around a divine service. The other, regarding more irrelevant rules. Take a guess which post has had the most replies so far? The answer speaks volumes. I think. :-)
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refrakted		#3		[-]
Posts: 330 07/28/2009 19:36	deaconess wrote: July 27, 2009 Dear Chief Apostle Leber: No Gayle. You are making too fine a discrimination here. If the serving ministry is truly in oneness with the prompting of the "mysterious" Holy Spirit while he serves, then the goal of listeners, even those other serving ministries sitting in the wings and in their own turn perhaps serving behind the altar, is to be in "oneness" with the one serving. That makes the serving persons and all the listeners in "oneness", as the "Body of Christ", with the "mystery" of the Holy Spirit (promised by Christ) expressing Itself through a mere human... I remember Apostle Wagner once saying, that he "knew" when he had that "oneness" - not discriminating between oneness with the one serving or Holy Spirit behind their words - because he found himself thinking what was going to be said, almost before it was said, in a sort of "deja vu" fashion. I have served behind that altar, and I know absolutely that I was often aware of scripture, and had thoughts about that and other relevant things, that were not "my" thoughts and perspectives and insights. And the clarity I experienced at those times, and the way scripture seemed to "open up" and seem "clear" to me... all that would fade after I left the altar, and my own limited intelligence took over. I always found that... mysterious. And humbling. And even if I have concerns with a policy within the Church, of Apostle exclusivity (your other thread thus being better), I will not deny that experience, because I experienced it as undeniably real. That doesn't mean you or anyone else has to believe it, but I believe that is consistent with what the Chief Apostle is saying in this instance. And to that degree, I think your issue is on a false footing, in this case. RF
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deaconess	false footings	#4		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/28/2009 20:57 NAC Thorn in the Side	refracted, I disagree with your disagreement. There is no fine distinction. The NAC leadership consistently points to oneness with the apostles and bearers of blessing, neglecting to instruct that true oneness is only achieved through unity with Christ. Countless examples have been posted on the NACBoard substantiating that, including Freund's criticism of brothers that were focusing too much on Christ, that the pendulum had swung too far in that direction so that apostles were no longer mentioned. Another glaring example was Freund's sermon in which he spoke of wanting to know the heart of the Chief Apostle... never once mentioning Christ.... ministers preaching how they wish to emulate their B.O.B. and thus imperfect men. This is the "unity" and focus that continues to be preached to the members, due to the fact that the Divine Service Guides continue to advocate the preaching of that message by including it in sermon preparation material. This is the unity that is achieved when apostles are viewed as indispensable... that somehow unity with Christ is unachievable without them. I believe that is the intent of the message conveyed in the article: without the commission of the apostle one cannot feel the divine "mystery" at work... and it is the assurance of the "certainty" that they have apostles to be united with that strengthens the members. Veils torn asunder. Unity with Christ... or unity with Christ only through apostles and those united with them?
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Finch		#5		[-]
Posts: 461 07/28/2009 21:20	refrakted. I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form. Things are said and ideas are brought forth which would not normally pop up in the mind of the speaker. The NAC is not wrong when it asks for a thorough preparation before taking a service. Native Americans had the Sun Dance, similar to many other cultures the world over. They prepared beforehand, did not eat during the ceremony (sometimes lasting many days) and received their visions from it. Only difference is, I cannot see any of the NAC BoB's willingly participate in such preparation as the The Arapaho, Arikara, Asbinboine, Cheyenne, Crow, Gros, Ventre, Hidutsa, Sioux, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibway, Sarasi, Omaha, Ponca, Ute, Shoshone, Kiowa, and Blackfoot tribes, did. I do not believe there is anything mysterious about it at all. Ooops, forgot about the Blackfeet. :-) Last Edited By: Finch 07/28/2009 21:28. Edited 1 time.
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refrakted		#6		[-]
Posts: 330 07/28/2009 21:47	Finch wrote: I do not believe there is anything mysterious about it at all. Well, it was mysterious to me. Deaconess: Perhaps I'm nit-picking, just because the quotes you provided didn't include the wosd "indispensable". I've already come to terms with the fact that Finch is righter about my state of mind at the altar and at service, than I find many others at the NAC altar truly seem to have. Some were even "awful", and i had trouble listening to them, because the same thing that made me "sure" at the altar, made me sure they were NOT coming from the same "spirit" (I use that as a qualified term) as me. I remember asking BatP once, if he had considered that perhaps there once "had been" a true impulse from the Spirit of God, in the NAC; and that perhaps it has "moved on". It appears that God gave us free will, and if so then it is not beyond possibility that the Holy Spirit goes, where it is most welcome; rather than as many seem to want It to, "making" people conform to its presence. Somewhere it says, my sheep will hear my voice; and if so, they should follow, where that voice leads them - irrespective of what a particular church hierarchy says. I think. (Just my thoughts.) RF
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BatP	...been there, dt, htts...	#7		[-]
Posts: 936 07/28/2009 22:06	...RF...I'm not sure, at this perspective, I would call it a true impulse from the spirit. I, too, was a priest. I can say I experienced something similar to what you describe, but I think it was an emotional state, not a divine one. I felt "full of the spirit", but, who knows. When I was able to prepare "properly", I felt enabled to serve. But truth be told, I had mostly formed a sermon in my mind. I had rolled it around in my head, I had observed the objections and reformulated the sermon to be the best I could present. All the while feeling it was inspired. But that was from that perspective at that time. In hindsight, I believe it was woo and emotion. In other words, nothing divine, nothing mysterious, nothing insincere. I don't doubt, men of the NAC believe the spirit exercises itself within the church, but I'm not the least bit convinced of it. However, I do know some wonderful caring servants in the church who are a credit to the faith, however misguided the faith may be. I may not support your choice, but I do support your right to choose.
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deaconess	meat	#8		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/28/2009 22:28 NAC Thorn in the Side	Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the "mystery meat" was that we were served at the Day of Youth in the 1970s?
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GerGuest001		#9		[-]
Posts: 2797 07/29/2009 03:31	I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form. Just as an aside: pastors in other denominations do not only burn lamp oil at night to prepare a sermon. They also research the old texts and try to understand the meaning of a Bible text for the upcoming service to interpret it in a way which is suitable for the congregation and are praying as they do that. Maybe not all of them. Sometimes one could get the feeling that some NAC ministers think that they are the only ones who sincerely prepare for a service. Regards, GerGuest001
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Finch		#10		[-]
Posts: 461 07/29/2009 03:53	GerGuest001 wrote: I would dare to say that anyone who stood behind that altar with the understanding that the people gathered want to hear god speak through them, would be somewhat in a different mind than normal, especially after thorough "preparation" to be in "oneness" with the teaching to be brought and the chief apostle, who gave it. A form of meditation which concentrates all one's faculties into one cause. Once the person behind the altar has managed to achieve it, the sermon/message takes on a far more "spiritual" form. Just as an aside: pastors in other denominations do not only burn lamp oil at night to prepare a sermon. They also research the old texts and try to understand the meaning of a Bible text for the upcoming service to interpret it in a way which is suitable for the congregation and are praying as they do that. Maybe not all of them. Sometimes one could get the feeling that some NAC ministers think that they are the only ones who sincerely prepare for a service. As did the Arapaho, Arikara, Asbinboine, Cheyenne, Crow, Gros, Ventre, Hidutsa, Sioux, Plains Cree, Plains Ojibway, Sarasi, Omaha, Ponca, Ute, Shoshone, Kiowa, and Blackfoot tribes in America. It is practiced by many cultures the world over and has been "the way" for thousands of years already whenever mankind need to cross the threshold of the spirit. Many NAC BoB's could learn from any one of the tribes above. Geeesshh man. I keep forgetting the Blackfeet. Last Edited By: Finch 07/29/2009 03:55. Edited 1 time.
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IKWTBAB	meat me in KC	#11		[-]
Posts: 36 07/29/2009 04:33	deaconess wondered: Not to change the subject, but does anyone know what the "mystery meat" was that we were served at the Day of Youth in the 1970s? I remember this subject being discussed at length during the long bus ride home. No one ever really knew but we had many ideas: gorilla, horse and yak always topped the list. Do you remember how we were herded into the dining hall by the KC gestapo? IKW
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GerGuest001		#12		[-]
Posts: 2797 07/29/2009 06:24	Geeesshh man. I keep forgetting the Blackfeet. Reminds me of tar heels. The point I was trying to make is the perception in the NAC about service preparations in other denominations. Preparation with different texts, parallels from the Bible, theological literature, dictionaries and encyclopedias (except "We looked it up in the dictionary and it means 'the divine will'") are not worth as much as the words "inspired by the HS" at the time they are uttered. OK, has the NAC ever considered that these ministers might also be earnestly praying? But then ChAp Leber said in Magdeburg in a service on 2006-Sep-24 Auszug aus dem GD, Magdeburg, 24.09.06: Es gibt manche Versuche durchaus ernsthafter Natur, dem lieben Gott zu dienen, die aber nicht auf dieser Grundlage der Wiedergeburt aus Wasser und Geist erfolgen. Und dann sind sie zum Scheitern verurteilt! My translation: There are manifold attempts of a certainly earnest nature to serve our good God; but they are not based on the rebirth from water and spirit. And then they are doomed to fail! Regards, GerGuest001 Last Edited By: GerGuest001 07/29/2009 06:33. Edited 1 time.
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Trike Troll	Roll up your sleeves and stand in line	#13		[-]
Posts: 1837 07/29/2009 07:00 Scourge of God	"It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him." Lofty indeed! more of a juggling act if you ask me. It sounds like a flowery speech from an aspiring Colombian cartel boss in an attempt to legitimize his takeover. Provide the NACindo, get them hooked and bring me the money...with 1-4-5
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Finch		#14		[-]
Posts: 461 07/29/2009 07:07	Of course, you are so right when you speak of the preparation done by spiritual leaders all over the world where great depth is gone into and lots of spiritual wrestling goes into it. The result of all that preparation is obvious when they deliver their sermon. However, as the chief apostle says; it's all in vain. Pity that. :-( If only these other clergy would become New Apostolic, with all their knowledge of the scriptures, they may even be asked to help out in the Sunday School or in the garden. Doomed to fail has also got much darker connotations, has it not?
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GerGuest001		#15		[-]
Posts: 2797 07/29/2009 07:42	Finch wrote: Doomed to fail has also got much darker connotations, has it not? Yes. That is also a reason why the statement has caused criticism. "Doomed to fail, except ..." is simply another example for INDISPENSABLE. Regards, GerGuest001
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deaconess	order up!	#16		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/29/2009 08:17 NAC Thorn in the Side	Back to mystery meat. What is it that the members are being served? Who IS the master chef... man or God? Without a commission and connection to their apostle, the substance of the minister's sermon is questionable... and would take away the certainty of the listener that they are on the right path? Can a "restaurant" only attain an "A" rating if it has apostles... "A" being for apostles?
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deaconess	connections	#17		[-]
Posts: 7280 07/29/2009 08:39 NAC Thorn in the Side	In the July 2009 Divine Service Guide Special Edition, the following statement is made: "The preaching ministers and the congregation are surrounded by something mysterious which we cannot grasp rationally. Only by our faith can we recognise that God is present and that it is He who serves His congregation. The divine service mystery endures all the way to the "Amen" of the closing prayer. It is the lofty task of the minister conducting the divine service to let the congregation hear the word of God and feel the divine mystery at work in the commission of the Apostle and in oneness with him. This strengthens the congregation and imparts certainty and courage for the path of faith that remains to be trod. The divine mystery will ultimately be revealed when we are united with the Lord for all eternity." If one refers to the following excerpts from Chief Apostle's sermon in Uganda that is featured the July 2009 Our Family, the infererance of the above is better understood: ..."We stand on a rock. Remember that Jesus said to Peter: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hades shall not prevail against" (Matthew 16:18 ). We as the congregation stand on the rock. As long as we are in contact with it, we are strong and can defeat the devil, in fact, all the other spirits. But the moment we lose contact to this rock, when other spirits manage to disrupt this connection, we immediately become weak. We will no longer be blessed. Our faith will weaken and disappear and we will not be able to feel the love of christ any more. That is why it is so important that our footing on this rock is firm, that we are connected with the Chief Apostle and with the Apostles, and attend divine services as often as possible. If we go our own way and lose touch with this rock we will lose our strength. Thus weakened we fall victim to the whims of the spirits. For this reason, I want to lay the following message into your hearts: Stay on the rock, firmly connected to the Apostle ministry. Don't allow yourselves to be disconnected from it, for then we would lose the strength we need to become worthy for the day of the Lord. Let us be resolved to stand on the rock and to remain there and not to allow any spirits to disrupt this connection... ...Are we true to our calling? If this is so, we will always see a connection to the Apostle ministry, will attend services regularly and endeavour to do our share in the work of God. It says here that we are called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ. Let us remain with the ambassadors of the Lord and have fellowship with them. Let us have confidence in them. Let us trust them, for then God can bless us abundantly. I am happy to say that you have shown confidence and trust in your leaders. And i ask you to have confidence in your future leader. Let us always see the Apostles as servants of God, who have been sent by Him. God called them and they accepted. If we remain in fellowship with them, we will be blessed and be led to the goal of our faith, the day of the Lord...."
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HelpMFTT		#18		[-]
Posts: 177 07/29/2009 09:15	refrakted: was what you felt at the Altar from your connection with Christ or your connection with an Apostle? If you truely served in the corrrect mind-set, your feelings came DIRECTLY from the trinity. Deac: Based on the OF article, who is the Rock? The NAC or Christ? Interesting that the Chief never makes that last connection.
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Finch		#19		[-]
Posts: 461 07/29/2009 16:00	Gosh. Am I understanding this right? :-) Our faith turns this "something mysterious" into God? Without belief in the apostles - We immediately become weak and will not be blessed? We will not be able to feel the love of Christ anymore? We will become weak and fall victim to the whims of the spirits? We will lose the strength we need to become worthy for the day of the Lord? We will not be blessed abundantly by God? and... When we have fellowship with the apostles we have fellowship with Christ? and lastly... We must always see the apostles as servants of god?
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lost		#20		[-]
Posts: 2196 07/29/2009 16:40 High Priestess	contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult I don't think the NAC is perceived as a cult, I believe it is a cult and so do many, many others.
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contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult

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Yuku free message boards

"The NAC is a business owned by a select few men who managed to replace the carrot, with god"

~ Finch ~

contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult

contributing to the New Apostolic Church being perceived as a cult

Quick Reply

This is NOT an official New Apostolic Church website! For official news or information regarding the church, please contact:

The New Apostolic Church * 404 Glen Cove Ave, Sea Cliff, NY 11579 * 516-609-9300

e-mail Peter Johanning, Media Secretary of the New Apostolic Church : peter.johanning@nak.org

This is NOT an official New Apostolic Church website! For official news or
information regarding the church, please contact:

**The New Apostolic Church * 404 Glen Cove Ave, Sea Cliff, NY 11579 * 516-609-9300**