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Johann Bischoff

CA Leber releases a Statement Concerning the Message of CA Bischoff (the Botschaft)

DirkNow responds :

"... I have never seen anything like this statement. Endless equivocation. Craven, post-hoc rationalizations. And an undying refusal to call a spade a spade and label the botschaft for what it was: the deluded ravings of a senile megalomaniac.

Note also the way that Leber speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he is sorry for those few sentient beings that resisted the message and suffered as a result. But on the other, he holds out those that accepted the message and made preparations (undoubtedly including the vilification of the infidels) as the faithful souls whose obedience was exemplary. So which group was right, and which group was wrong? You can't have it both ways, unless you are the New Apostolic Church."

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DA Kraus

Author	Comment
sprague	DA Kraus		Lead	[-]
Posts: 215 01/10/2010 17:56 Evangelical NAC (limited to 20 posts/day due to an inability to post properly)	Tags : None Remove this ad I have read some very interesting comments about the late DA.Kraus. I would like to add my comments as well. I had the opportunity to serve as a Sub Deacon and as Priest. I know he could be a bit abrasive but this was not my experience with him. He contributed greatly with his time and substantially with his finances. Given his station in life he could have afforded to live in a mansion. His house, though large, was not to the standard of those in a similar position. I know of many members that he helped financially and used his personal funds rather than the church's. Those so-called NAC jobs helped brothers to do God's work here and overseas. His management of church funds was such that the church was never in the red nor did any church carry a mortgage. This is unheard of in any other religious organization. In Canada all non-profit organizations are required to be audited yearly, therefore, suggestions that there were improprieties is just baloney. He never demanded from any of the brothers anything that he was not prepared to do. As a result the church grew by leaps and bounds. We are just now realizing the massive contribution he made to this church. Someone who is in a leadership role will inevitably have detractors. He did not suffer fools nor did appreciate those who tried to snow him. I challenge anyone in this or any other forum to do better. At this point in our church history we desperately need strong and dynamic leadership.We have them just not enough of them. Those that couldn't stand the heat have obviously gotten out of the kitchen
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Calamity		#1		[-]
Posts: 6590 01/10/2010 18:15 Ne'er-do-well	Wow . . . if I get close enough to your post, I can almost smell what Kraus had for breakfast. 15 years ago. Tell Steve Pathmann that there were no improprieties. Oh wait, he's dead now, too. But not before Kraus forged an excommunication letter for him and ruined his life in the NAC. Why'd he do that, if there were no improprieties? Why did the Chief Apostle at the time meet with Steve on several occasions, and why did he send Apostles from Europe to give communion and support to Steve and his family if Steve was just a big old liar? The NAC in North America proper did not grow by leaps and bounds. The devastation you see today - not enough young men to do "the work", churches being closed and consolidated, dwindling membership - is a direct result of that megalomaniac. That's the legacy he leaves behind. He was a liar, a forger, and a bully. We have documented proof of it here on this board. If you'd care to take off those Kraus-colored coke-bottle goggles for a few minutes, you might see that. Do you need me to direct you to the pertinent posts, Robert? It wasn't that people "couldn't stand the heat" that they got out - it was because of the lies and unbiblical bull$sh!t Michael Kraus and his minions tried to shove down their throats. The NAC is simply reaping what it sowed during the Kraus years. Kraus was a boorish, loudmouthed $h!tkicker from Translyvania who gave me the best present I ever got when he died on my birthday. Good riddance to bad rubbish. <--- \| http://newapostasy.blogspot.com \| \| Magical rune/tarot: The Blasted Tower \| ---> Edited 2 times by Calamity 01/10/2010 18:48.
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sprague		#2		[-]
Posts: 215 01/10/2010 18:23 Evangelical NAC (limited to 20 posts/day due to an inability to post properly)	Calamity wrote: Wow . . . if I get close enough to your post, I can almost smell what Kraus had for breakfast. 15 years ago. Is this one of those snide remarks you were referring to? If there is someone out there who can do better please step forward. DA Kraus made mistakes like any other person and if you were expecting perfection you were disappointed. But I can tell you from experience, he was always there when I needed him and never once did he even raise his voice to me. Maybe it was because I am too "big and scary" as you say but I don't think so.
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Calamity		#3		[-]
Posts: 6590 01/10/2010 18:31 Ne'er-do-well	sprague wrote: Is this one of those snide remarks you were referring to? That wasn't snide - you've got your big nose buried so far up the nutjob's a$$ it's amazing you can come up for air. sprague wrote: If there is someone out there who can do better please step forward. Okay! Make me District Apostle for North America! Put me in, coach! Oh wait, you can't . . . you're just a cheerleader, not even first string material, not one of "The Boys" in the "Apostle's College". Oh well. Better luck next time. As we all know, the NAC promotes the best and brightest - and not just family relatives - to leadership positions. AHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I knew I couldn't say that with a straight face!! sprague wrote: DA Kraus made mistakes like any other person and if you were expecting perfection you were disappointed. But I can tell you from experience, he was always there when I needed him and never once did he even raise his voice to me. Maybe it was because I am too "big and scary" as you say but I don't think so. I've seen your pics - trust me, you're not big and scary. I have other adjectives I could use, but they might be misconstrued as being "snide". As for Kraus, f&^k him. I hope the worms are burrowing through what's left of that pea brain of his. <--- \| http://newapostasy.blogspot.com \| \| Magical rune/tarot: The Blasted Tower \| ---> Edited 2 times by Calamity 01/10/2010 18:35.
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Next Right	It was only a matter of time before...	#4		[-]
Posts: 225 01/10/2010 18:34	sprague puked out a TB line like: I have read some very interesting comments about the late DA.Kraus. I would like to add my comments as well. I had the opportunity to serve as a Sub Deacon and as Priest. I know he could be a bit abrasive but this was not my experience with him. He contributed greatly with his time and substantially with his finances. There are always two sides to a story. Given his station in life he could have afforded to live in a mansion. His house, though large, was not to the standard of those in a similar position. I know of many members that he helped financially and used his personal funds rather than the church's. Those so-called NAC jobs helped brothers to do God's work here and overseas. What about the disproportionate number of Kraus family members occupying those jobs? His management of church funds was such that the church was never in the red nor did any church carry a mortgage. This is unheard of in any other religious organization. In Canada all non-profit organizations are required to be audited yearly, therefore, suggestions that there were improprieties is just baloney. So you're saying the Canadian government should be privy to information not available to the people contributing? And, we should trust the government? He never demanded from any of the brothers anything that he was not prepared to do. As a result the church grew by leaps and bounds. We are just now realizing the massive contribution he made to this church. That's just it, he demanded everybody strive to be like him, not Jesus Christ. Big difference IMHO. Someone who is in a leadership role will inevitably have detractors. He did not suffer fools nor did appreciate those who tried to snow him. He seem to love crushing anyone who disagreed with him. He was a leader only because Bischoff needed his vote, according to the NAC's own historical report. Otherwise he would have continued working in relative obscurity. Once he was elevated to a powerful adminstrative position, he was off and running...the church back into the dark ages. I challenge anyone in this or any other forum to do better. At this point in our church history we desperately need strong and dynamic leadership.We have them just not enough of them. That is what happens when a systematic program of selective inbreeding is enacted. Those that couldn't stand the heat have obviously gotten out of the kitchen Or, they were illegally excommunicated or just simply gave up for the sake of self-preservation. Edited 1 time by Next Right 01/10/2010 18:51.
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Next Right		#5		[-]
Posts: 225 01/10/2010 18:49	Oh, btw sprague, YOU CAN quote properly!!! Good job. NR
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choirman69	We may never know.....	#6		[-]
Posts: 304 01/10/2010 19:50	Kraus is dead. Wagner is dead, and most everyone 'in the inner circle' is dead or 'retired'. I honestly think we have better shot of knowing who actually killed JFK. CM69
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Trike Troll	Will the REAL Mike Kraus please standup!	#7		[-]
Posts: 2534 01/10/2010 20:19 Perma-Banned	sprague wrote: I have read some very interesting comments about the late DA.Kraus. He contributed greatly with his time and substantially with his finances. Given his station in life he could have afforded to live in a mansion. In Canada all non-profit organizations are required to be audited yearly, therefore, suggestions that there were improprieties is just baloney. Someone who is in a leadership role will inevitably have detractors. He did not suffer fools nor did appreciate those who tried to snow him. Hey sprague! why don't you contact this person and find out what she remembers about your glorious/straight shooter Michael Kraus... Deputy editor - Ros Guggi Phone 604-605-2005 Fax: 604-605-2378 E-mail: rguggi@theprovince.com Ros was investigating, not snowing, he was later fined by the Govermnent...with 1-4-5
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sprague		#8		[-]
Posts: 215 01/10/2010 21:13 Evangelical NAC (limited to 20 posts/day due to an inability to post properly)	Next Right wrote: There are always two sides to a story. Yes I agree and your experience may have different than mine. Yet this truth is just as valid. The mistakes he may have made cannot detract from obvious accomplishments he made. Next Right wrote: What about the disproportionate number of Kraus family members occupying those jobs? If you owned a business wouldn't you want your family to be part of it? Of course you would. This is normal. Next Right wrote: So you're saying the Canadian government should be privy to information not available to the people contributing? And, we should trust the government? Every non-profit organization, has to by law, submit an audited financial statement. Simple as that. I do not know the regulations in the US but I do know them very well here. Next Right wrote: That's just it, he demanded everybody strive to be like him, not Jesus Christ. Big difference IMHO. Maybe they that was they way they interpreted it, but it was not the case. Next Right wrote: He seem to love crushing anyone who disagreed with him. He was a leader only because Bischoff needed his vote, according to the NAC's own historical report. Otherwise he would have continued working in relative obscurity. Once he was elevated to a powerful adminstrative position, he was off and running...the church back into the dark ages. You are entitled to your opinion however I disagree. Next Right wrote: That is what happens when a systematic program of selective inbreeding is enacted. No it is because we have too many complainers and not enough workers. It is much easier to critisize the work of others that to get off your &^%$ and do something. Next Right wrote:* Or, they were illegally excommunicated or just simply gave up for the sake of self-preservation. Excuses to not get the work done, workers do. (fixed attributions, but not the poor spelling. Robert, you need to practice posting - please use the test area, this is getting ridiculous. -C) Edited 2 times by Calamity 01/25/2010 10:44.
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sprague		#9		[-]
Posts: 215 01/10/2010 21:18 Evangelical NAC (limited to 20 posts/day due to an inability to post properly)	Calamity wrote: Okay! Make me District Apostle for North America! Put me in, coach! First you gotta get in the game. I've seen your pics - trust me, you're not big and scary. I have other adjectives I could use, but they might be misconstrued as being "snide". Just don't call me old, that really hurts LOL As for Kraus, f&^k him. I hope the worms are burrowing through what's left of that pea brain of his. No, I think I wll just remember him for the good he accomplished Edited 1 time by sprague 01/13/2010 01:39.
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klitzke		#10		[-]
Posts: 2716 01/10/2010 21:29 ezOP	Remove this ad Hey Calamity, thanks for all those instructional posts on how to do line by line quotes and responses. I'm surprised Sprague even can figure out how to turn on his PC and use a keyboard.
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Next Right	Who owns the NAC?	#11		[-]
Posts: 225 01/10/2010 21:33	sprague fecetiously wrote: If you owned a business wouldn't you want your family to be part of it? Of course you would. This is normal. I don't blame Kraus for hiring his relatives to work in the carpet business. But what I am talking about are the paid positions in the NAC. Kraus sure as hell acted like he owned it, but point of fact, he did not. Well... should not have owned it. As we know, he managed to gain control of the NAC in North America, (perhaps illegally) and then as we also know ran it as if he was the sole proprieter of the "business." Of course, the revenue generated gave him the ability to call the shots throughout the world. However, if we could get a look at the constitutions that are now well hidden in the archives somewhere, we'd *really* know what the founding fathers of the NONAC intended. That sounds like a pretty good reason for Kraus and his inbred successors to keep them buried, isn't it? NR
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klitzke		#12		[-]
Posts: 2716 01/10/2010 21:34 ezOP	Sprague writes: Yes I agree and your experience may have different than mine. Yet this truth is just as valid. The mistakes he may have made cannot detract from obvious accomplishments he made. Kinda like Mussolini was a good guy because he made the trains run on time. And another certain european leader at the same time did a wonderful job improving his economy for a while and creating an orderly society. I guess the good outweighs the bad? As long as you do good things, it's OK to do bad things. Edited 1 time by klitzke 01/10/2010 21:37.
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Calamity		#13		[-]
Posts: 6590 01/10/2010 21:44 Ne'er-do-well	klitzke wrote: Hey Calamity, thanks for all those instructional posts on how to do line by line quotes and responses. I'm surprised Sprague even can figure out how to turn on his PC and use a keyboard. Well, I tried . . . I guess with all that Kraus butt-snorkeling he's doing, he can't see the monitor very well. <--- \| http://newapostasy.blogspot.com \| \| Magical rune/tarot: The Blasted Tower \| ---> Edited 1 time by Calamity 01/10/2010 21:58.
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BrendaP		#14		[-]
Posts: 7534 01/10/2010 21:51 Administrator	sprague writes re DA Kraus : No, I think I wll just remember him for the good he accomplished Having lived in South Africa most of my life, I didn't know much about DA Kraus until I got into contact with Steve and what stands out in my mind, is listening to the DA shouting over the phone "you motherf&c#ing sonofabitch" because of a refusal to side with him (Kraus) against CA Urwyler. With all the latest technological advancements, I am sure a cassette recording can be captured as an mp3 or computer file. When I go back to get my stuff, I'll make sure to bring it with.
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BatP	...are you serious (rhetorical)?!	#15		[-]
Posts: 1976 01/10/2010 22:26	BrendaP wrote: ...listening to the DA shouting over the phone "you motherf&c#ing sonofabitch" because of a refusal to side with him (Kraus) against CA Urwyler... I don't like Kraus for the bullsheet he made me endure during my youth (and then some), but is the above a statement of fact? Why would Kraus care enough about what a DE thought to use that kind of language? Was it more common for him to speak that way than we're generally aware?
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BrendaP		#16		[-]
Posts: 7534 01/10/2010 22:39 Administrator	BatP wrote: BrendaP wrote: ...listening to the DA shouting over the phone "you motherf&c#ing sonofabitch" because of a refusal to side with him (Kraus) against CA Urwyler... I don't like Kraus for the bullsheet he made me endure during my youth (and then some), but is the above a statement of fact? Why would Kraus care enough about what a DE thought to use that kind of language? Was it more common for him to speak that way than we're generally aware? Steve sent me the tape. Ken and I were planning to visit him as he had more tapes and documents to give me in person, but sadly that couldn't happen. I posted some in this thread and I am trying to find the other thread about the phone conversation. It was during the time when he "posted" spies (ministers) on the street where Steve lived to monitor his movements. Once you've read about it, you'll understand more why Kraus forged the excommunication. An extract from the thread : The D.Ap. started to yell and even swear and told Steve he came personally to inform him that he and his family were never welcome in Gods house again.Than said in a year you'll be bankrupt,sick ect. ect. Steve had a very close relationship with CA Urwyler. I guess it was jealousy on the part of DA Kraus. Don't forget he prayed for Urwyler to die...
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BrendaP	I found it	#17		[-]
Posts: 7534 01/10/2010 22:47 Administrator	A rough transcript of my telephone conversation with Steve. it may not make sense at times, but that's the way the conversation went and I didn't say much at all. He was active, before his excommunication in Chicago, Indianapolis, Minneapolis, South Pacific, Puerto Rico and the Islands. After his excommunication he wasn't allowed in any church in the US. In 1991 a letter with the CA's signature was sent by DA Kraus to all families telling them about the excommunication. SP confronted the CA about the letter and the CA denied that he had authorized this. In 1984 when SP was D Elder, CA Urwyler came to Chicago and stayed at SP's house.In 1985 SP went to Switzerland to visit the CA for his birthday and he had DA Kraus' permission to go. A further trip (I think R Fehr's 25th wedding anniversary) CA Urwyler invited SP and Ap Wohl. Other apostles were there too Kraus, Wagner, etc. All traveled by bus and stayed in apartment block. CA asked SP and Ap Wohl to come to the apartment office for a tour and some tea. SP went alone as Ap Wohl had to do something first. CA told SP the Lord has great love for you. Told him not to trust Kraus.... (There was jealousy as they were not included in some activities). A day was spent by the pool. CA's room was 1st floor near the pool. SP got message to go up to room, phone CAs son. He told him his dad (CA) wanted to see SP. This was noted by Kraus/Wagner, etc. SP was on knees, CA gave him blessing for 20 mins in German. E Vovak was outside room, knocked, asked for blessing. CA prayed, but gave no blessing. After trip, SP was called to Canada. Kraus met him at gate of hotel by airport and they went to a conference room. Kraus gave him an ultimatum to follow either him or the CA. If willing to follow Kraus, the split was all set up. SP shocked, was like son to Kraus. He told Kraus he will follow the CA and not support split. Wagner found out, went mad. A copy of the Apostle College Constitution was thrown on the floor. Got put in briefcase. Went to pay bill, Kraus put arm around SP and told him again to follow him and not CA. SP told him he is in oneness with CA. Kraus told him to watch it, all the apostles are out to get him. When SP got back to Chicago, got phone call from Kraus. Swearing, sonofabitch, motherf8cker, etc. and got told he is being suspended. E Vovak called him, told him he'd heard things, will get his ministry back, etc. Pathmann Letter Thread Edited 2 times by BrendaP 01/10/2010 23:04.
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BatP	...I guess it's time to read up again...	#18		[-]
Posts: 1976 01/10/2010 23:03	BrendaP wrote: Don't forget he prayed for Urwyler to die... ...imprecatory prayers in the NAC? That's Fred Phelps stuff.
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deaconess		#19		[-]
Posts: 9722 01/10/2010 23:28 NAC Thorn in the Side	sprague wrote: I have read some very interesting comments about the late DA.Kraus. I would like to add my comments as well. I had the opportunity to serve as a Sub Deacon and as Priest. I know he could be a bit abrasive but this was not my experience with him. He contributed greatly with his time and substantially with his finances. Given his station in life he could have afforded to live in a mansion. His house, though large, was not to the standard of those in a similar position. I know of many members that he helped financially and used his personal funds rather than the church's. Those so-called NAC jobs helped brothers to do God's work here and overseas. His management of church funds was such that the church was never in the red nor did any church carry a mortgage. This is unheard of in any other religious organization. In Canada all non-profit organizations are required to be audited yearly, therefore, suggestions that there were improprieties is just baloney. He never demanded from any of the brothers anything that he was not prepared to do. As a result the church grew by leaps and bounds. We are just now realizing the massive contribution he made to this church. Someone who is in a leadership role will inevitably have detractors. He did not suffer fools nor did appreciate those who tried to snow him. I challenge anyone in this or any other forum to do better. At this point in our church history we desperately need strong and dynamic leadership.We have them just not enough of them. Those that couldn't stand the heat have obviously gotten out of the kitchen Kraus sold church property, then purchased under another name at less than market value. Here's a question for you sprague: "Who" did the New Apostolic Church Canada loan money to or "invest" in that it received the following income in interest/dividends? Kraus Carpet? 2000: $6,371,575 2001: $6,857,807 2002: $7,108,147 2003: $6,839,527 2004: $6,845,542 2005: $6,846,853 2006: $6,333,594 2007: $6,367,105 2008: $5,677,179 As far as auditing goes, the government doesn't do the auditing. And do they examine the returns? Nope. I found a more than $3,000,000 addition error/ discrepancy between what NAC Canada said they gave NAC Foreign extension, and what was reported several years ago. The return's never been amended.
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deaconess		#20		[-]
Posts: 9722 01/10/2010 23:38 NAC Thorn in the Side	Remove this ad Pathmann said in a phone conversation that it was a 50 year loan....
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