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Two Unfinished Topics And Questions

Author	Comment
SonjaHelga	Two Unfinished Topics And Questions		Lead	[-]
Posts: 668 09/21/2006 12:30	Tags : None Calamity, I have a question for you. First, a little clarification. I have tried to figure out how to answer your question: How have we changed. I have read through all the documents regarding the many changes of our faith. Now, you had asked me if I could list what has changed, and I said yes. Well, after that you listed it all yourself. I think it was you, if not, someone else was kind enough to list a lot of links to all the changes. I mean, what could I add to these? I could only give you examples of how the "day to day" life of the congregation has changed, but I do not think that was what you were after. My question to you. If you know the links to all these documents, and I am sure you have read the documents, why would you doubt the changes? Or, could it be that you are ignoring or not interested in any of these changes, and you are looking only for one change. Everything else would not matter! That change being the belief in the apostles, the holy sealing and this being the way to becoming the bride of Christ? It is a clear change that even though we are absolutely a way, the CA said we are not the ONLY way. So I am baffled how I should answer your question. And, I know you are busy wiping out empty posts, so I will patiently wait till you return. My next question: About the forgiveness of sins: Yes, you are right that there are not any other happenings of the forgiveness of sins in the new testament. At least, I have not found them if they are there. So perhaps you can explain that specific conversation Christ had with his apostles: John 20 (King James Version) the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
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LACNAC	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions	#1		[-]
Posts: 1609 09/21/2006 15:00 Forum Moderator	Sonya, I am not going to offer what I believe Calamity's answer to be but rather would like to offer some of my own thoughts on the topic of forgiveness and the Apostles' commission to forgive sins. The NAC uses John 20:20-23 as justification for the Apostles being commissioned to forgive sins in Christ's name. A couple of problems arise with this understanding. First, who was present when Christ made this statement? You will notice the absence of Thomas. Now, while, the statement made by Christ is very important, don't you think that if it was part of the Apostolic commission, that it would have been spoken to ALL of the active Apostles? Second, when Christ gives, what is is considered to be the Apostolic commission as recorded in Matthew 28:16-20, the commission to "forgive sins" is "surprisingly" absent. Finally, one of the greatest issues that the Pharisees took against Christ was that he forgave someones sins. They said, based on what they had been taught, that only God could forgive sins. Christ did not counter that statement by saying that no, man could forgive sins. Rather, his argument was that God was the only one that could forgive sins, but since He was part of God, he could forgive sins. There is no scriptural reference that Christ ever refuted the fact that only God (Father,Son and Holy Spirit) could forgive sins.
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JF ez	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions	#2		[-]
Posts: 4755 09/21/2006 16:17 Weaned on The Word	Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christs sake has forgiven you. EPHESIANS 4:32 Forbearing one another and forgiving yourselves, if anyone has a complaint against any. As Christ forgave you, so also you do. COLOSSIANS 3:13
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Calamity	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions	#3		[-]
Posts: 5170 09/21/2006 16:18 MythInformed	SonjaHelga needs answers after reading all the links regarding the NAC's "changes": *Quote:* SH: Well, after that you listed it all yourself. I think it was you, if not, someone else was kind enough to list a lot of links to all the changes. I mean, what could I add to these? the links, posted by me (and Vapour123), were discussions we've already had on the board concerning the NAC's "position papers", and other topics. it's a lot to read and absorb and compare against what you currently know and believe, i know. but thanks for taking the time to look at it. if anything, SonjaHelga, when others tell you that the NACBoard is full of nothing but anti-NAC complainers who don't like to be told what to do, you'll KNOW that at the very least, we've done a lot of research into these topics. that's more the behavior of people looking for answers, and not just complaining. *Quote:* SH: I could only give you examples of how the "day to day" life of the congregation has changed, but I do not think that was what you were after. i have always been amazed that what the members experience can vary from city to city and region to region - it reminds me of the discussion with Goldie last week. most NACs literally have no idea what their church believes - what they preach to others in their published works. the NACBoard has shown me that even the NAC's ministers rarely understand what their OWN CHURCH professes. the problems arise when MY minister enforces a "rule" or sliver of doctrine that isn't enforced (or even known about) in YOUR area by YOUR minister. but - the rule or doctrinal sliver most certainly exists! to date, the NAC hasn't done much to change their published doctrine - i'm waiting for 2008, when the new Q&A book arrives. thus far, these "position papers" say a lot of nothing, and they certainly aren't binding the way true doctrine would be. *Quote:* SH: My question to you. If you know the links to all these documents, and I am sure you have read the documents, why would you doubt the changes? i cannot refute your experiences, SH - in the same way i cannot look at you and tell you your experiences of faith are nothing to be taken seriously . . . they are experiences that you've gone through, your congregation is what you experience every week, and it's deeply personal for you. but the vast majority of us (guests or visitors, too) only have the written words of the NAC hierarchy to go on - and the words they write don't match up with what some of the NAC's members and ministers are saying. *Quote:* SH: Or, could it be that you are ignoring or not interested in any of these changes, and you are looking only for one change. Everything else would not matter! That change being the belief in the apostles, the holy sealing and this being the way to becoming the bride of Christ? i must admit, the NAC's apostles (lately) are sticking to their simplified story - "we're here to prepare the Bride of Christ for Jesus, blah blah blah." of course, they provide no evidence to back up this claim, and show us nothing that proves they are qualified to make this "offer" (which often involves them knowing the hidden, Godly answers to deeply spiritual matters, such as haircuts, beards, skirt length, etc), but i digress. *Quote:* SH: It is a clear change that even though we are absolutely a way, the CA said we are not the ONLY way. the NAC still believes they are THE way - they've simply graciously conceded that God can save whomever he pleases. read their position on the forgiveness of sins, or the 144,000 again. IN THIS PHASE OF SALVATION, the NAC's apostle ministry is ESSENTIAL to salvation. so while they acknowledge that God can do as he pleases, they still consider themselves indispensible. *Quote:* My next question: About the forgiveness of sins: Yes, you are right that there are not any other happenings of the forgiveness of sins in the new testament. At least, I have not found them if they are there. one thing you'll find, SH - i rarely (if ever) ask a question where i don't already possess the answer. there is no biblical evidence of any apostle forgiving anyone's sins - ever. and they had ample opportunity to do so. *Quote:* SH: So perhaps you can explain that specific conversation Christ had with his apostles: John 20 (King James Version) the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. i posted my bible quotes where Jesus and the apostles made it pretty clear that as you forgive someone who has wronged you, likewise you will be forgiven. in fact, every story and parable that Jesus told dealing with forgivness points to this fact. consider the parable of the man who owed a debt to the king, and couldn't pay - and the king forgave him. once freed, the man saw another who owed him money - and demanded that he be put in prison. when the king heard about this, he was furious. why? what did he do to the first man? lastly, even if i did agree with you and said "okay, i concur - the apostles were given the power to forgive sins!" . . . how do we conclusively show a guest or visitor that the NAC apostles are "real" apostles? because THEY SAY SO? where is the documentation linking the apostles from Christ's time to the NAC's apostles? (LACNAC - great job on your reply. thanks!)
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vapour123	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#4		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 16:37 Forum Moderator	SonjaHelga... There is some good info in these threads about the Jesus and the forgiveness of sins... Jesus alone vs Jesus (+) doctrine p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=12.topic Forgiveness of sins as the Apostles understood it? p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=45.topic in the stead... p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...=293.topic Upon this Rock I will build My church p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=60.topic NAC Doctrine - The "former and latter rains" p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=66.topic Is the absolution in other denominations valid? p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=75.topic Communion - NAC Exclusive? p098.ezboard.com/COMMUNIO...1281.topic Forgiveness of Sins by Apostles p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...1096.topic 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Gee...what about this verse...no Apostles required.... an Apostle of Christ is telling us that if we confess our sins (Repent)..then HE (JESUS CHRIST) will forgive us our sins...! 1 John 1: 7-10 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ============ 1 John 2:1-2 ============ 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Jesus alone vs Jesus (+) doctrine p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=12.topic
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vapour123	Changes in NAC Doctrine...	#5		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 16:39 Forum Moderator	The NAC Creed is indeed the NAC Doctrine...and the Position Papers are opinion papers...you know every body has an opinion.... BUT.... The NAC CREED IS the NEW APOSTOLIC DOCTRINE...in a nutshell.....and IT has NOT Changed.... regardless of an opinion of the New Apostolic Church in a Position Paper........ The NAC CREED is what the Sunday School is taught... It is what the Confirmands are taught... It is what the Adults are taught.... It is what is taught from the Apostle Altar... The NAC CREED is what the NAC believes and teaches officially... and The NAC CREED has NOT Changed! If anyone thinks the NAC is in the Reform process... just check out this thread.... Possible Reform?/Musings - Position Papers p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...=317.topic p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...68&stop=68 Anyway.....if I may...I am going to reference a post by Exogetic and Laura because they say what I want to say...but they say it better than I could. This is from the following thread: Position paper published 1/24/06 Exclusiveness p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=60.topic ================================== Exogetic wrote: Re: Once again, what really changed? --------------------------------------------- Just so it's perfectly clear to anyone who might think the recent position paper in some way infers NAC is not exclusively THE church whereby one finds salvation (in whatever phase they want to define.)...... I checked to see if Article 8 of the NAC creed has been updated, changed, expunged, etc etc. For Review, *Quote:* Article 8: I believe that those baptised with water must receive the Holy Spirit through an apostle, to obtain the childhood in God, whereby they become incorporated as members in the body of Christ. Article 8 remains as it has in the past. "....must receive the Holy Spirit through an apostle,...." That's what "indispensible" must mean I guess. Soooo, all you NAC believers and defenders out there, here's a question for you: *Quote:* IF NAC isn't exclusive, how else might one receive the Holy Spirit if one MUST receive the Spirit through an apostle? Remember, it's the receipt of the Holy Spirit which IS the seal or sign that one is saved (is a Child of God) You get to sit in the penelty box is you cop out and say "We don't know" like the BOBs tried a few years back. Remember, scripture is clear about how one receives the Spirit. For Example..... *Quote:* Romans 1:16 Says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." Wait a minute? "the Gospel of Christ IS the power?" I thought "the APOSTLE is the power?" Isn't that what Article 8 infers? We've all been taught how Acts proves Apostles are required to "dispense" the Holy Spirit. The "NAC-Apostles" teach that. However, THE apostles didn't. They taught Christ and Christ cruxified. In every opportunity, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. We have that today in the Bible. The gospel is the Bible. Old and New Testament. Yep, even the Old testament. Christ is preached in type and in prophecy throughout the Old Testament. The Bible and the exhortation, reading, preaching, and teaching of it dispenses salvation and therefore the Spirit. Paul himself says so. What this shows is the conundrum the Uber-BOBs find themselves in. Recognizing that folks are starting to see the errency in saying NAC is exclusive, the position paper attempts to show some type of inclusion of the greater Body of Christ. However, if they come right out and say, "We're not the Exclusive Church!" then they have to give up such things as Article 8. They have to admit Apostleship ISN'T required for salvation.......and let's not forget it is the "apostles" who are writing the position paper. Let's not hold our breath waiting for them to make those type of admissions. Hence we get a convoluted mess that at best is challenging to follow if not entirely incoherent in it's attempt at re-defining doctrine. It starts to look like LAW without GRACE. In the end, it all seems to be "smoke and mirrors" combined with a hope that no one reads the paper carefully. BE SURE OF THIS THOUGH: AB's will announce that the church has stated it's not exclusive and there's no need for concern. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just look up the definition of the term "indispensible." ================================== Laura wrote: How close is Your Lord, Your Salvation, His Holy Spirit? --------------------------------------------- Right! Nice to see you again, Exogetic. The Good News is that Jesus Christ is Lord and has purchased our salvation for us. That is what the real Apostles preached and the hearers believed. Our part today is the same as it was then, to believe this Good News. Jesus Christ is the power source. When we come to believe in Him/accept Him as Lord, we plug into that power. Romans 10 is so good. Some people think of the Lord as somewhere afar off. That we all have to scale some infinitely tall ladder to reach Him, and hope that He sees all our great efforts and accepts us. Paul reminds everyone how close the Lord and all the benefits of Him are to us. He says, "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scriptures says, "Anyone who trusts in Him will never be put to shame...for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Now is the time. Other than humble acceptance of what Christ offers you, there is nothing you can do to earn God's grace. If you could earn it, then it wouldn't be grace at all. (Romans 11:6) Like Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches, God's Grace is a gift, and not obtained by works. It is freely received. And freely received it immediately becomes the power of God to salvation to all who humbly receive it. This can be experienced now, by anyone and everyone who would stretch out their hands to their Lord and say "I'll take it. I want You, Lord." The Holy Spirit, like the gift of eternal life and salvation, is given directly from God. It does not wait for any man's hands upon anyone's head. It's as near as your mouth. As near as your heart. It waits only for the willingly opened heart's door and humble confession of desire for Him.
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vapour123	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#6		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 16:42 Forum Moderator	Hi SonjaHelga..... concerning Forgiveness of Sins... -- The Apostles (Disciples - this can include all follower's and believer's of Jesus Christ) have been given the opportunity to "DECLARE" -- NOT TO "FORGIVE"... They Declare what that anyone can have their sins forgiven, if they repent. (Each individual can forgive each other - however, God (Christ) forgives that individual upon a "Repentant" heart.) * CHRIST ALONE FORGIVES !!!!! ========================= www.lawspublishing.com/quest4.htm ========================== ========================== Someone has asked, "If only God can forgive sins, then how do you explain John 20:21-23, which says that Christ gave his apostles the power to forgive sins?"** ========================== The passage for consideration states, "then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained." Notice carefully the passage. Jesus begins with a salutation of peace. They were to be messengers of peace. They were to be his ambassadors, the bearers of his message of peace to the world. What follows is what is commonly called The Great Commission. As it is stated in Mark, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16). As the father had sent the Christ into the world to reveal to mankind his divine plan of salvation, so Christ is commissioning the apostles to go into the world and to continue the work he has begun. This message they were to take was the gospel. By faithfully obeying it mankind would receive forgiveness: God's grace, and if faithfully lived, eternal life in eternity. Those who obey the message of the gospel will have their sins forgiven, i.e., remitted; however, those who reject the gospel message will have their sins retained. God does the forgiving based upon man's compliance with his divine terms. The reference in the passage has to do with the commission God is giving the apostles through Christ: it is the gospel message; when it is obeyed; we enjoy the benefits of the blood of Christ. Man does not do the saving--it is God that saves, when man renders obedience to the gospel message. It was this gospel message that the apostles were being told to preach and to teach. The Bible makes clear that God and not man has the authority to forgive sins. Notice an incident in the life of Christ. In Mark 2 they bring to Jesus one that is sick of the palsy. Because of the crowd, they lowered him, while on his bed, down from the rooftop. The text says, "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee" (Mark 2:5). However, some of the scribes reasoned among themselves that Jesus was guilty of blasphemy, because he forgave the sick man of his sins making this statement, "Who can forgive sins but God only?"(vs. 7). In one respect the scribes were right, and in another they were wrong. They were right, in the sense, that only God can forgive sins. They were wrong in failing to see that Jesus is the Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and, thus, has the authority to forgive sins. To prove this to them Jesus miraculously heals the sick of the palsy (vv. 11, 12). In doing this he makes this statement, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?" Only God could forgive sins and only by the power of God a miracle can be performed. Jesus was God, God in the flesh (consider I John 1:9; 2:1). The point is that forgiveness of sins belongs only to the Godhead. Therefore, our Lord here commits to his apostles, those being sent, the right to authoritatively declare in his name that there is forgiveness for man's sin, and on what conditions the sin will be forgiven (See Matt. 16:18,19 for a similar-type situation). The apostles are to tell the world the will of God and the end result is the forgiveness of God, when God's will is obeyed. Jim Laws www.lawspublishing.com/quest4.htm
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vapour123	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#7		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 16:43 Forum Moderator	Hope this helps.... Here are some Bible Commentaries concerning John 20:21-23 ==================== 1.Matthew Henry Bible Commentary- www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/h....htm#19-25 Read John 20:19-25 Verse 19-25 - This was the first day of the week, and this day is afterwards often mentioned by the sacred writers; for it was evidently set apart as the Christian sabbath, in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. The disciples had shut the doors for fear of the Jews; and when they had no such expectation, Jesus himself came and stood in the midst of them, having miraculously, though silently, opened the doors. It is a comfort to Christ's disciples, when their assemblies can only be held in private, that no doors can shut out Christ's presence. When He manifests his love to believers by the comforts of his Spirit, he assures them that because he lives, they shall live also. A sight of Christ will gladden the heart of a disciple at any time; and the more we see of Jesus, the more we shall rejoice. He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, thus showing that their spiritual life, as well as all their ability for their work, would be derived from him, and depended upon him. Every word of Christ which is received in the heart by faith, comes accompanied by this Divine breathing; and without this there is neither light nor life. Nothing is seen, known, discerned, or felt of God, but through this. After this, Christ directed the apostles to declare the only method by which sin would be forgiven. This power did not exist at all in the apostles as a power to give judgment, but only as a power to declare the character of those whom God would accept or reject in the day of judgment. They have clearly laid down the marks whereby a child of God may be discerned and be distinguished from a false professor; and according to what they have declared shall every case be decided in the day of judgment. When we assemble in Christ's name, especially on his holy day, he will meet with us, and speak peace to us. The disciples of Christ should endeavour to build up one another in their most holy faith, both by repeating what they have heard to those that were absent, and by making known what they have experienced. Thomas limited the Holy One of Israel, when he would be convinced by his own method or not at all. He might justly have been left in his unbelief, after rejecting such abundant proofs. The fears and sorrows of the disciples are often lengthened, to punish their negligence. ================= 2. Jameison-Faussett-Brown Commentary - via StudyLight.org www.studylight.org/com/jf...hapter=020 23. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, &c.--In any literal and authoritative sense this power was never exercised by one of the apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to them. (See on Mt 16:19). The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense--as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline. ================= 3.John Wesley's Notes on the Bible bible.crosswalk.com/Comme...hapter=020 John 20 Verses 21-23 Verse 21. Peace be unto you - This is the foundation of the mission of a true Gospel minister, peace in his own soul, 2 Cor. iv, 1. As the Father hath sent me, so send I you - Christ was the apostle of the Father, Heb. iii, 1. Peter and the rest, the apostles of Christ. Verse 22. He breathed on them - New life and vigour, and saith, as ye receive this breath out of my mouth, so receive ye the Spirit out of my fulness: the Holy Ghost influencing you in a peculiar manner, to fit you for your great embassy. This was an earnest of pentecost. Verse 23. Whose soever sins ye remit - (According to the tenor of the Gospel, that is, supposing them to repent and believe) they are remitted, and whose soever sins ye retain (supposing them to remain impenitent) they are retained. So far is plain. But here arises a difficulty. Are not the sins of one who truly repents, and unfeignedly believes in Christ, remitted, without sacerdotal absolution? And are not the sins of one who does not repent or believe, retained even with it? What then does this commission imply? Can it imply any more than, 1. A power of declaring with authority the Christian terms of pardon; whose sins are remitted and whose retained? As in our daily form of absolution; and 2. A power of inflicting and remitting ecclesiastical censures? That is, of excluding from, and re-admitting into, a Christian congregation. ===========================
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vapour123	Re: Changes in NAC Doctrine...	#8		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 16:50 Forum Moderator	Links to New Apostolic Church Position Papers: Possible Reform?/Musings - Position Papers Links p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...68&stop=68 p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...=317.topic New Apostolic Church International www.nak.org/en/news/ www.nak.org/ Also see our discussions on the forgiveness of sins in the thread: Anti-Death Knell for the Board p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...opicID=632
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vapour123	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions	#9		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/21/2006 17:46 Forum Moderator	LACNAC wrote: *Quote:* The NAC uses John 20:20-23 as justification for the Apostles being commissioned to forgive sins in Christ's name. A couple of problems arise with this understanding. First, who was present when Christ made this statement? You will notice the absence of Thomas. Now, while, the statement made by Christ is very important, don't you think that if it was part of the Apostolic commission, that it would have been spoken to ALL of the active Apostles? Second, when Christ gives, what is is considered to be the Apostolic commission as recorded in Matthew 28:16-20, the commission to "forgive sins" is "surprisingly" absent. Finally, one of the greatest issues that the Pharisees took against Christ was that he forgave someones sins. They said, based on what they had been taught, that only God could forgive sins. Christ did not counter that statement by saying that no, man could forgive sins. Rather, his argument was that God was the only one that could forgive sins, but since He was part of God, he could forgive sins. There is no scriptural reference that Christ ever refuted the fact that only God (Father,Son and Holy Spirit) could forgive sins. Thanks...LACNAC... ......I provided some info threads on the forgiveness of sins, an article on John 20:20-23 and some biblical commentary on those verses. Sonja...please look over all of this info, read the verses in context to the biblical text (chapter, verse, meaning, use of other scripture about forgiveness of sins in conjunction with John 20: 20-23) and then put all of these things together. The evidence speaks for itself....
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olderandwisertwo	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#10		[-]
Posts: 517 09/22/2006 15:55	SonjaHelga: You cite the verses in John 20:20-23, as proof that Christ gave the apostles the commission to forgive or retain sin. In reading these verses out of context with the rest of the Bible, I can certainly see the validity of your reasoning. However, when researching the topic in light of biblical history and in context with other books of the New Testament, The Great Commission takes on a different meaning. Perhaps things have become "muddied" a bit within various language translations. It is generally taught that Christ gave his apostles the commission to go into all the world to preach HIS GOSPEL. Through the gospel, if any man believed in Jesus and truly repented, his sin were forgiven. If they did not accept the truth of Jesus, their sins were not forgiven. They were forgiven by God, through Christ's death on the cross. He took our sins onto Himself. It cannot be any other way. The power to decide which sins would be forgiven and which ones would be retained, is just not a power He would give to mortal man. The apostles followed His command. The bible does not point out that the apostles at any time took it upon themselves to forgive sins. This is such an important act, I'm certain that it would have been recorded, if it happened at all. The apostles went into all of the world and preached the forgiveness of sin, through Jesus Christ. How wonderful that we can avail ourselves of that today! Other passages in the bible alllude to The Great Commission, such as Matthew 28:16-20. However, it does not state that the apostles received the commission to forgive sins on their own. If it were so, wouldn't it be included here also? Instead He commanded them to go into all the nations to teach his gospel and to baptize in the name of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. No mention of the power to forgive sins. Only God has that power. When we celebrate the Holy Communion, we do so IN REMEMBRANCE of Christ's sacrifice so that our sins may be forgiven. Christ has already taken our sins upon Himself, and the officiant dispensing the bread and wine (and even announcing the absolution) does not have the power to forgive us. That is God's alone. Others, such as LACNAC, Vapour and Calamity have commented on your assertion and have done so in a much more masterful way. I do hope you will ponder these things with an open mind. This brings us to a point which, to me at least, is one of the most significant: Even IF your thought on the latter-day apostles being able to forgive sins were true (and I'm not at all claiming that it is), would that hold true of anyone who calls himself an "apostle"??? There are many churches which claim to have living apostles, including the Mormons, various Pentecostal groups, various African-American churches, the Catholic Apostolic Church and the United Apostolic Church along with the New Apostolic Church. All claim to be the "true" church. How is one to know which "apostle" is the real thing? I'm not trying to be critical, but that is a point which has never really been answered by the New Apostolics.
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SonjaHelga	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#11		[-]
Posts: 668 09/22/2006 19:05	*Quote:* I do hope you will ponder these things with an open mind. Yes, that I will absolutely do. As a matter of fact I will print all of these responses out. They are absolutely very interesting and thought provoking. I thank you all for such amazing responses. And yes, I see how my thoughts on this subject were not correct...the apostles absolutely cannot forgive sins. I believe they can declare the forgiveness of sins...but as you stated, that is way different then forgiving sins. Like proclaiming the gospel. However, I shall print all of these answers out, and I shall have one of my many discussions with my friend. There is deep substance here,
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SonjaHelga	Re: Forgiveness of sins...	#12		[-]
Posts: 668 09/22/2006 19:11	It printed out 17 pages...that should keep us busy for quite a few hours :)
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tiredlurker	okay	#13		[-]
Posts: 203 09/23/2006 02:29 King of the Great White North	SH prints: *Quote:* It printed out 17 pages...that should keep us busy for quite a few hours :) ok.
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Laura	Forgiveness is in what HE DID!	#14		[-]
Posts: 1971 09/23/2006 10:37 Registered User	Olderandwisertwo wrote: *Quote:* When we celebrate the Holy Communion, we do so IN REMEMBRANCE of Christ's sacrifice so that our sins may be forgiven. I gotta clarify something here...it's just got to be clear. Celebrating Holy Communion, doing so "in remembrance" is not what precipitates our sins then being forgiven. It's not in the remembrance, it's not in the elements (bread or wine), it's not in the words spoken, it's not. It's in what HE DID all those years ago. That's gotta be clear. Here's one revealing section from Colossians ,"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." (Colossians 2:13-15). Question: When Christ died for your sins, how many of them were in the future? Answer: All of them. When you believe and accept Christ Jesus as your Savior, when you realize that you can't save yourself, when you realize "He gave His Life for you so He could give His Life to you", when you realize that In Him YOU HAVE FORGIVENESS ALREADY-NOW-AND-FOREVER, then you can truly begin to experience all the benefits of this New Life you've been given In Him. And you can REST in knowing that God has promised to remember your sins no more. The writer of Hebrews reminds believers of the New Covenant Promise "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." (Heb. 10:17) And in the next verse it is clarified "And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." So you see, Christ forgives completely. As believers,we don't HAVE to ask for it. We have it. Christians are to understand that once you are saved, you are always saved. From the moment you first accept Christ as your personal Savior YOU ARE FORGIVEN COMPLETELY and saved to the uttermost. That includes all your past, present and future sins. So, in that sense, Christ's blanket of forgiveness covers us completely and forever. We don't have to continually wrestle with those covers to try and cover ourselves lest we be left in the cold. Forgiveness is not something we only have on Wednesdays and Sundays, only when we hear the words "Your sins are forgiven", or only if we continually ask for it. Once we accept His gift, it is finished. We are covered. Living in this broken world, in broken bodies, we will falter, we will sin, and we will experience the uncomfortable consequences of our sin in the short and/or long-term. Yet, it is the eternal consequences of sin that are forever removed by Christ's once brought and eternally valid sacrifice. The NAC teaches that it is only their apostle ministry that can effectually pronounce the forgiveness of sins and that it only covers those who believe they have this ministerial power and who place themselves under those words and their authority. They stand in the churches, at the altars, and make such pronouncements on Wednesdays now and Sundays on a more or less regular basis, with occasional exceptions of the days. They claim to give authority to the lower ministries to make such pronouncements in their stead. But you have to be there, hear those words, and place yourself mentally and wholeheartedly under that pronouncement to actually BE forgiven. Fail in any part of that and you're not forgiven. I'm a believer in Christ, love and follow Him with my whole heart. I confess Him and Him alone as my salvation. Yet, according to NAC teaching, I'm not forgiven. I don't submit to their supposed ministry and go to the NAC where those "freeing" words are spoken. That is not at all in line with the Gospel of Christ. Romans 10:9 says "If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in you heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with you mouth that you confess and are saved." It is not a complicated process. Salvation, forgiveness, eternal life with Christ, is as close as your own mouth and heart. If you read Romans in it's entirety and ponder it, you will realize this. I'll tell you what is biblical about the NAC teaching. In Hebrews 10:11 you can read and see for yourself how similar the NAC ways of doing things are to the old Jewish system. All of which implies that Christ's sacrifice was not enough to forgive their sins. No. Adding anything to His sacrifice or taking anything from it denies it's validity. Such a system as the NAC utilizes essentially rejects the significance of Christ's death. Hebrews 10:11 makes it clear that such practices "can NEVER take away sins". It demonstrates a complete lack of belief in the sufficiency of and significance of Christ's death and resurrection to Life for us. It demonstrates a complete lack of focus on Jesus Christ for salvation. And it demonstrates ignorance of God's Word. I hope you'll add these to your growing pages of print-outs, SonjaHelga. If the work of salvation is finished then why...? Forgiven to be Resurrected
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Laura	pronouncement not provision	#15		[-]
Posts: 1971 09/23/2006 11:55 Registered User	If in Christ Jesus our sins are already forgiven then the pronouncement of this should only serve to remind believers of what they ALREADY HAVE!!! FORGIVENESS!! It should only be a declaration of an established fact and undeniable reality, where believing Christian's are concerned. But the NAC wants all to believe that you don't have it until you hear it. And after you hear it, you have to come to hear it again and again, for your sins to BE forgiven. The NAC teaches that if you don't go and hear this declaration from their altar from their servants then you are NOT FORGIVEN. As if the power of forgiveness is not in what Christ has done, but in their continual pronouncement of it! In so doing, they make Christ's work on the cross, and the believer's acceptance of it INSUFFICIENT. Declaring what is true (Believers are forgiven in Christ) is one thing. Believing that anyone's ministry today has the authority to affect another's state of forgiveness or unforgiveness in making such a declaration, takes the power out of Christ's hands and puts it in human hands, human tongues. And Hebrews warns against such falseness. Christ is the only Mediator. The only High Priest. He both authored and finished the forgiveness issue. His Spirit has gone out into the world. And He Himself is drawing desiring souls unto Himself. Let your faith be in Christ and what He has done for you, versus what someone else can do for you or what you think you have to do for yourself.
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olderandwisertwo	Re: pronouncement not provision	#16		[-]
Posts: 517 09/23/2006 12:17	Laura, the point I'm trying to make is that when we celebrate holy communion (bread and wine/absolution) we do so NOT because that act actually forgives our sins, but IN REMEMBRANCE of what Christ has done for us to forgive our sins. Christ has died on the cross so that our sins are forgiven - once and for all. This does not need to be repeated through a ritual on a weekly or monthly basis. However, He did ask us to remember what He did and many of us do so through the celebration of holy communion. I also want to be absolutely clear on that and I'm glad you raised the issue.
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Still Standing	Re: pronouncement not provision	#17		[-]
Posts: 1211 09/23/2006 12:29	Laura said: "But the NAC wants all to believe that you don't have it until you hear it. And after you hear it, you have to come to hear it again and again, for your sins to BE forgiven. The NAC teaches that if you don't go and hear this declaration from their altar from their servants then you are NOT FORGIVEN. As if the power of forgiveness is not in what Christ has done, but in their continual pronouncement of it! In so doing, they make Christ's work on the cross, and the believer's acceptance of it INSUFFICIENT." ____________________________________________________ Yes Laura, you are making a very important clarification regarding the concept of the forgiveness of sins according to NAC doctrine. The "middleman" was and is absolutely necessary. That is why communion visits were made to those who weren't able to be in church due to illness. Their sins could not be forgiven without the visit. I believe that in the Catholic church, the host actually becomes the body and blood of Christ and although consecrated by the priest, can be dispensed via lay persons both male and female. Is this correct? Katherine...? What about other mainstream religions? How do they handle the "middleman" as it pertains to the forgiveness of sins? Was this one of the reforms Martin Luther wanted to address during the reformation?
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Katherine	Forgiveness	#18		[-]
Posts: 3000 09/23/2006 13:09 Bleeding Heart	Hi, Still Standing! *Quote:* The "middleman" was and is absolutely necessary. That is why communion visits were made to those who weren't able to be in church due to illness. Their sins could not be forgiven without the visit. Exactly. My mother recently told me a story about a friend of her mother's. The woman suffered from MS and eventually became incapacitated. Because she didn't belong to any church, my grandmother arranged for one of the NAC ABs to pay the woman a visit. He did, and went back a few more times, each time proselytizing to her about the NAC. She didn't want to join the church. On his last visit there, he grew so outraged with her refusals to convert, that he said, "Well, lady, you'd better decide. Do you want to DIE in your SIN?!?!?" Yes, this woman who had lived through WWII, lost her son to starvation, her husband to the war, and was now suffering from a disabling disease was going to die in her "sin" unless she joined the NAC and had her sins forgiven by one of their middle men. She read him the riot act in return and told him never to come back again. *Quote:* I believe that in the Catholic church, the host actually becomes the body and blood of Christ and although consecrated by the priest, can be dispensed via lay persons both male and female. Is this correct? Katherine...? Yes, traditionally, the Catholic Church taught that "transsubstantiation" occurs when the priest consecrates the elements. I don't know many Catholics who actually believe that anymore, but I think it is still official church teaching. It is, however, done in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice. The traditional teaching on forgiveness involves the sacramento of "Reconciliation" (which used to be called confession), but again, most Catholics I know haven't gone in years and still go to communion. Traditionally, you weren't supposed to go to communion unless you had been to confession first and had had the absolution of the priest. But remember, I'm speaking of the American Catholic Church and my experiences in a very progressive diocese. I'm sure there are many dioceses that hold to a more traditional view and the rules that go along with that. Yes, communion can be dispensed by lay persons, both male and female. Lay persons are involved in all aspects of the services, from doing readings, dispensing communion, even delivering the sermons! *Quote:* What about other mainstream religions? How do they handle the "middleman" as it pertains to the forgiveness of sins? Was this one of the reforms Martin Luther wanted to address during the reformation? Most of the churches view communion exactly as Laura has described. There are no middle-men necessary for the forgiveness of sins. That is between the believer and God!
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olderandwisertwo	Re: pronouncement not provision	#19		[-]
Posts: 517 09/23/2006 13:12	Still Standing: You are correct in that the NAC believes that in the dispensation of the communion waver and in the pronouncement of the absolution by a minister through his sender, the receiver's sins are forgiven. That must be done on a regular basis, because we keep on sinning. At least that's the way it was when I was there. I recall that the Catholic church believes in transubstantiation - the communion actually becoming the body and blood of Jesus. Don't know if that has changed in recent times. Mainstream Christians, at least in my non-denominational church, we celebrate holy communion, but only in remembrance of what Christ has done. We do not believe that part-taking of the actual bread and wine is what forgives our sins. Our sins are already forgiven by God if we believe in Jesus Christ and are repentant. No middleman is required. The pastor reads the appropriate portion of scripture and emphasises that we do this in remembrance of what Christ has done and how He celebrated communion with His apostles.
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Laura	On Ceremonies or Savior...Luther & Spurgeon	#20		[-]
Posts: 1971 09/23/2006 13:29 Registered User	*Quote:* Was this one of the reforms Martin Luther wanted to address during the reformation? ~ Still Standing As far as the forgiveness of sins being a done deal through Christ alone, Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon, out of years of personal experience and study had these rather strongly worded thoughts to offer on the topic as it concerned the Catholic Church and the ceremonies/rituals of their day: "The Mass is the greatest blasphemy of God, and the highest idolatry upon the earth, an abomination the like of which has never been in Christendom." Martin Luther (1483-1546) "My dear pope, I will kiss your feet and acknowledge you as supreme bishop if you will worship my Christ and grant that through His death and resurrection, not through keeping your traditions, we have forgiveness of sins and life eternal. If you will yield on this point, I shall not take away your crown and power; if not, I shall constantly cry out that you are the Antichrist, and I shall testify that your whole cult and religion are only a denial of God, but also the height of blasphemy against God and idolatry." Martin Luther (1483-1546) Charles Spurgeon wrote: "Our glory must be given to Christ, and to Christ alone! Christ and Christ only must be the grand object of the Christian; the promotion of his glory must be that for which he is willing to live, and for which, if needs be, he would be prepared to die. Oh! down, down, down, with everything else, but up, up, up, with the cross of Christ! Down with your baptism, and your masses, and your sacraments! Down with your priest-craft, and your rituals, and your liturgies! Down with your fine music, and your pomp, and your robes, and your garments, and all your ceremonials. But up, up, up, with the doctrine of the naked cross, and the expiring Savior! ~ Spurgeon's sermon, "Christ the Glory of His People" #826. Luke 2:32. and one more... "Has it never struck you that ceremonial salvation would be a very wicked way of salvation? What is there, for instance, about drops of baptismal water which could make men better? What is there about confirmation that should assure you of the forgiveness of your sins? What is there about receiving a piece of bread and drinking a drop of wine that should confer grace? Might you not remain as bad at heart and as wicked after all these ceremonies as you were before? ... Now, if there be no effect in water to make you hate sin, and no result from the priest's hands to make you love God, and no result from sacraments to make you holy and heavenly-minded, why do you trust in them? Surely it is immoral in the highest degree to tell a man that by outward ceremonies, which cannot change the life, he shall have his sin forgiven! The gospel gives not a vestige of confidence to anybody who hopes to be saved by the performances of ritualism. The gospel is so simple, so divine; how is it that so many cast it aside, and take up with these sillinesses which are the inventions of man? Only divine grace can turn you from the delusive path of trusting in vain religious ceremonies for salvation! ~ Spurgeon's sermon, "Hope, Yet No Hope. No Hope, Yet Hope" No. 684. Isaiah 57:10. I think Spurgeon got it right in one in this...Spurgeon stated once, "Christ can and will save you, ere you move an inch from your seat." I agree. And good thing too. Honestly, if you want Christ and you want ALL HE ALONE OFFERS, in your hearts (not necessarily with your feet) turn to Him. Run to Him. Run to Christ. Do not walk to the alter and to self-proclaiming stewards seeking grace and mercy. In your hearts, go to the source.
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