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Two Unfinished Topics And Questions

Author	Comment
Still Standing	Re: On Ceremonies or Savior...Luther & Spurgeon	#21		[-]
Posts: 1211 09/23/2006 14:05	Hi Katherine, Olderandwisertwo, & Laura! Thanks for all the feedback. Based upon the words of Luther and Spurgeon, it would appear that the Reformation "didn't take" in the NAC. Yet...I remember Kraus being a big fan of Luther. Am I hallucinating?: blink
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Laura	We do this in remembrance of Him...	#22		[-]
Posts: 1971 09/23/2006 15:24 Registered User	*Quote:* Laura, the point I'm trying to make is that when we celebrate holy communion (bread and wine/absolution) we do so NOT because that act actually forgives our sins, but IN REMEMBRANCE of what Christ has done for us to forgive our sins. Christ has died on the cross so that our sins are forgiven - once and for all. This does not need to be repeated through a ritual on a weekly or monthly basis. However, He did ask us to remember what He did and many of us do so through the celebration of holy communion. I also want to be absolutely clear on that and I'm glad you raised the issue. ~ Olderandwisertwo I realized that, guy. I appreciated your explanation, your main point, and I agreed with most all of what you wrote. Those two little words though, "so that", just stuck out at me. I wanted to make sure your main point, and the Gospel's main point was clear. Like you, we celebrate Holy Communion in my church too. Everytime it is purposefully made clear what it IS and what it is NOT. It is to remind us of what Christ did for us and all He accomplished for us. It is not to continually absolve us of sin.
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JF ez	Re: Forgiveness is in what HE DID!	#23		[-]
Posts: 4755 09/23/2006 15:52 Weaned on The Word	When does Justification take place? propheticministries.net/f...php?tid=11
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vapour123	Cheap Grace vs. Costly Grace - D. Bonhoeffeer	#24		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/23/2006 16:17 Forum Moderator	Thanks Laura... for those quotes from Martin Luther & Charles Spurgeon...like you I also believe that once we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and are repentant are sins ARE Forgiven by JESUS BLOOD on the CROSS at Calvary... Here is something I read the other day on Cheap Grace vs. Costly Grace.... *Quote:* Dietrich Bonhoeffer on Cheap Grace vs. Costly Grace... "Let the Christian rest content with his worldliness and with this renunciation of any higher standard than the world. He is living for the sake of the world rather than for the sake of grace. Let him be comforted and rest assured in his possession of this grace - for grace alone does everything. Instead of following Christ, let the Christian enjoy the consolations of his grace! That is what we mean by cheap grace, the grace which amounts to the justification of sin without the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sins departs. Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him. Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must the asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: ye were bought at a price, and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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SonjaHelga	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions	#25		[-]
Posts: 668 09/23/2006 16:32	Just a quick note. I have gone to a few Lutheran Services, and their "Method" is not much different from ours. As a matter of fact, I told my Rector that if I did not know that I was in a Luthern church, it could easily have passed for a NAC service. I know of others who have said the same thing. So how is it that after all that writing by Luther, his church follows as much "custom and form" as do all the other Christian Churches?
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Laura	Understand the intention...	#26		[-]
Posts: 1971 09/23/2006 17:40 Registered User	Found on the web... "It was Luthers intention to bring about reform in the Roman Catholic Church, not necessarily to start a new Church. That proved impossible in the tide of popular dissent against Rome that swept through Europe in that period. Initially, at least, Luther remained a Catholic in spirit, if not in doctrinal belief, and the Church he began retains much liturgy in common with the Roman Catholic Church. Lutheran doctrine then, as today, differed in significant ways from Catholic doctrine. The two Churches have explored ways to reach ecumenism for decades, though little formal agreement has been achieved. Lutherans share with most Christians the belief in the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They also share a belief in the sacraments initiated by Jesus Christ: baptism and Holy Communion. They believe that salvation is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ and not through good works." Keep in mind also, SonjaHelga, there were two different people I quoted in that previous post. Luther took more issue with WHO was the author and finisher of our faith...the Pope? the Catholic Church? Or the Lord Jesus Christ? For Luther, the liturgy and ritual were fine so long as it was understood that it was through Christ's finished work that believing souls were forgiven and saved, not through the actual rituals themselves. Luther went through great pains to get the Bible translated into the language and the hands of the people. Whether rituals remained a part of their worship or not, he wanted to make sure they learned this truth and understood it. The toughest words you read about liturgy, ritual, custom and form were from Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892), several hundred years after Luther. And he was a Baptist preacher. We humans rely so much on what we see. In most things, we want the visual. This need for a visual can be a strength in us and a weakness. It can help us. It can hurt us. It can help us focus...kind of like directing our gaze with pointing finger in the direction of Christ. Celebrating the Lord's Supper, or observing or participating in a Baptism are examples. But it's little help at all if the focus of our attention then stays fixed on that pointed finger instead of to whom it actually is pointing. Too much that has passed for Christianity, has been the missplaced focus on the pointing finger of ritual instead of the Savior.
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SonjaHelga	Re: Understand the intention...	#27		[-]
Posts: 668 09/23/2006 17:46	*Quote:* Too much that has passed for Christianity, has been the missplaced focus on the pointing finger of ritual instead of the Savior. Thanks for that answer, Laura. There is a lot of thought provoking information here in this topic.
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vapour123	Re: We do this in remembrance of Him...	#28		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/24/2006 02:31 Forum Moderator	Thanks Laura...
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LACNAC	Re: pronouncement not provision	#29		[-]
Posts: 1609 09/25/2006 14:46 Forum Moderator	*Quote:* You are correct in that the NAC believes that in the dispensation of the communion waver and in the pronouncement of the absolution by a minister through his sender, the receiver's sins are forgiven. That must be done on a regular basis, because we keep on sinning. At least that's the way it was when I was there. Just a little clarification. The NAC does not believe the communion wafer forgives sins. The celebration of holy communion (dispensation of the wafer) is done to remember the sacrifice of Christ. The issue and error in belief comes with the necessity of hearing the absolution. Many believe, and it could be said that church doctrine is, that one must hear the absolution to have his/her sins forgiven. Although the absolution and celebration of Holy Communion happen at the same time in the service, they really are 2 separate events. IMO, there isn't a doctrinal issue with the holy communion celebration, but rather, the belief in the necessity for absolution.
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kbb	LACNAC don't forget	#30		[-]
Posts: 1663 09/25/2006 19:36 Official Prophet	Yes the Holy Communion is to remember the sacrifice of Christ AND complete "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him" (John 6:53-56). LACNAC, I'm going out on a limb, but I'm willing to bet you've heard Ap W Vovak say it IS the body and blood of Christ. Not symbolic, absolutely Transubstantiation. Now, is that how all NACs have been taught? I Is that what NACs believe? Early in my time on the board, ACTIVE NACs could not agree on this one. now another little detail "Hearing" the absolution. What about displaced members? Fifteen years ago, I spent some time in a foreign land (for work, nothing noble) where getting to service wasn't going to happen so easily (that and the language was a bit challenging). Wafers were sent, and I don't recall an instruction sheet, but I don't remember myself saying the absolution. At least I guarentee no priestly office was there to say the absolution. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but then again, God forgives, not men. Stale wafers, no miracle there. Later kbb
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olderandwisertwo	Re: pronouncement not provision	#31		[-]
Posts: 517 09/25/2006 20:28	Quote: Just a little clarification. The NAC does not believe the communion wafer forgives sins. The celebration of holy communion (dispensation of the wafer) is done to remember the sacrifice of Christ. The issue and error in belief comes with the necessity of hearing the absolution. Many believe, and it could be said that church doctrine is, that one must hear the absolution to have his/her sins forgiven. Although the absolution and celebration of Holy Communion happen at the same time in the service, they really are 2 separate events. IMO, there isn't a doctrinal issue with the holy communion celebration, but rather, the belief in the necessity for absolution. ____________________________________________________ I was not aware that the dispensation of the communion wafer and absolution were two separate acts. I thought that the entire ritual comprises the "holy communion" in the NAC. (In my current church, there is no absolution, since the pastor does not claim to forgive sins. He merely reminds us that Christ has died that our sins have been forgiven). Years ago, my family lived in an area where there was no New Apostolic Church, and we were regularly sent communion wafers. Had an absolution been said beforehand by the priest, or was there no absolution that went along with the wafers? In any event, we did not "hear" the absolution.
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Still Standing	Re: pronouncement not provision	#32		[-]
Posts: 1211 09/25/2006 20:58	Quote: Just a little clarification. The NAC does not believe the communion wafer forgives sins. The celebration of holy communion (dispensation of the wafer) is done to remember the sacrifice of Christ. The issue and error in belief comes with the necessity of hearing the absolution. Many believe, and it could be said that church doctrine is, that one must hear the absolution to have his/her sins forgiven. Although the absolution and celebration of Holy Communion happen at the same time in the service, they really are 2 separate events. IMO, there isn't a doctrinal issue with the holy communion celebration, but rather, the belief in the necessity for absolution. ____________________________________________________ I was not aware that the dispensation of the communion wafer and absolution were two separate acts. I thought that the entire ritual comprises the "holy communion" in the NAC. (In my current church, there is no absolution, since the pastor does not claim to forgive sins. He merely reminds us that Christ has died that our sins have been forgiven). Years ago, my family lived in an area where there was no New Apostolic Church, and we were regularly sent communion wafers. Had an absolution been said beforehand by the priest, or was there no absolution that went along with the wafers? In any event, we did not "hear" the absolution. ____________________________________________________ Now this is really interesting. I had always thought that it was the pronouncement of the absolution that forgave the sins and the wafer was the "receipt." I remember hearing in Sunday School and R.I. that if you weren't actually listening during the absolution, (because you were day-dreaming ) your sins wouldn't be forgiven. That always indicated to me that "the middlemen " were necessary. Just underscores the fact that the NAC position on this ritual has not been made clear to all.
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SonjaHelga	Re: pronouncement not provision	#33		[-]
Posts: 668 09/25/2006 20:59	Does anyone here remember DA Kraus always saying he prays the absolution every morning?
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olderandwisertwo	Re: pronouncement not provision	#34		[-]
Posts: 517 09/25/2006 21:04	SonjaHelga states: "Does anyone here remember DA Kraus always saying he prays the absolution every morning?" __________________________________________________ No, I had never heard of this. Whose sins was he absolving and who was he praying it for?
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SonjaHelga	Re: pronouncement not provision	#35		[-]
Posts: 668 09/25/2006 21:32	Everybodys. He started this about 3-5 years apprx. before retirement, maybe even longer. He prayed the absolution every morning over everyone...New Apostolic, when he woke up....
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tiredlurker	krausism re-lived	#36		[-]
Posts: 203 09/25/2006 22:03 King of the Great White North	ya I remember. OK what of it.
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SonjaHelga	Re: krausism re-lived	#37		[-]
Posts: 668 09/25/2006 22:14	We were discussing communion and forgiveness of sins and bread letters. The absolution was granted by prayer, ;the bread letter being the communion in Christ, That's what of it,
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kbb	So the what of it	#38		[-]
Posts: 1663 09/25/2006 22:25 Official Prophet	SH Per the above posts For the absolution of sin, the "officiant" merely/must pray? Only covers NACs, and which NACs (all sealed, all active, all somewhat active, all non-ex)? No one has to hear to be covered? Does the absolution in Divine Service cover all (NAC and non) those who attend (asleep or not) ? Esp if an Apostle is the officiant? Only one DAp (deceased) has informed members of this practice? perhaps we need to determine if NACs agree that the absolution and forgiveness are one in the same concept (synonymous) or somewhat different. Regards kbb
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Ernie	Re: So the what of it	#39		[-]
Posts: 171 09/25/2006 22:30 Favored Son	It is like when we bring home the groceries and pray over them all at once. Saves time at dinner.
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SonjaHelga	Re: So the what of it	#40		[-]
Posts: 668 09/25/2006 22:38	It's not NAC's agreeing that is important. What is important is what it really does stand for... in our doctrine. I know the absolution and the communion does confuse some members. However, they are two separate sacraments. One being the forgiveness of sins, the other being in fellowship with Christ in rememberance of his sacrifice. And the absolution covered all membership...awake or asleep. Considering the time differences in DA Kraus district, some had to be sleeping in other parts of the world.
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