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 Calamity |
Re: So the what of it | #41 |
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Posts: 5170 09/25/2006 22:46 MythInformed |
if Jesus gave us "The Lord's Prayer" as it is listed in the Bible . . . and if he truly gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins, as some people claim . . . then why isn't ANY absolution (and specifically the NAC's, for that matter) found *anywhere* in the Bible? doesn't that seem like an important thing for God to include in his book?
i mean, if we're gonna do it RIGHT . . . |
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 tiredlurker |
bless the food | #42 |
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Posts: 203 09/25/2006 23:01 King of the Great White North |
Ernie states:
Quote: Good point  Yes the absolution and HC are two seperate events. Absolution in the name of the apostles is a little odd, as previously stated this is not biblical. I belive a reminder of christs sacrifice (HC) could be helpful, but that would be only if it is used as a "pointing finger" that points to christ and not focus the attention on the finger (thanks Laura) When we are admonished not to "partake unworthily" (remember this krausism), wher is the focus? |
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tiredlurker |
so what of it | #43 |
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Posts: 203 09/25/2006 23:20 King of the Great White North |
kbb asks:
Quote: and: Quote: and: Quote: Good questions. What i wanted to add with this post is that Wagner also continued this tradition. I know this is hard to belive but i wonder what Latorcai and Freund belive. Has anyone heard either mention that his is still practiced? I never heard it discontinued do some TB's still belive and rely on this?
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tiredlurker |
sleeping | #44 |
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Posts: 203 09/25/2006 23:35 King of the Great White North |
SH:
Quote: Whew... A note to all who read my posts: In re-reading some of my responses, I am ashamed of the typeing and spelling errors  Please bear with this, I guess i will need to learn to edit or spellcheck or both.  
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DJG0770 |
Re: sleeping | #45 |
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Posts: 1341 09/26/2006 06:33 |
TL axes
Quote: I specifically remember RF indicating that this was NOT being done any longer. I don't recall whether it was in a B&W service. |
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BrendaP |
Re: sleeping | #46 |
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Posts: 6796 09/26/2006 07:03 Administrator |
Don't worry about spelling or typing errors!
 Let him who is without sin cast the first stone... Brenda |
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kbb |
SH, wait a minute | #47 |
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Posts: 1663 09/26/2006 07:44 Official Prophet |
The absolution is NOT a sacrament.
The NAC doctrine as explained during my formative years, and per the NAKI website Three Sacraments. Holy Baptism Holy Communion Holy Sealing. Thats it. Nothing else. The absolution is a completely different act/type of act kbb |
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SonjaHelga |
Re: SH, wait a minute | #48 |
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Posts: 668 09/26/2006 07:47 |
I realized my error after I posted it, but knew I did not need to go and fix it because someone else would.
Yes you are right, it is not a sacrament, it is a holy act. |
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Ernie |
Re: SH, wait a minute | #49 |
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Posts: 171 09/26/2006 09:01 Favored Son |
As I recall, the DA Kraus said we had to pray in the morning to request coverage in his absolution, especially if we had evil dreams, I guess.
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SonjaHelga |
Re: SH, wait a minute | #50 |
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Posts: 668 09/26/2006 10:57 |
Quote: I never heard him say that :)... |
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GerGuest001 |
Absolution | #51 |
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Posts: 2859 09/26/2006 11:24 |
I also remember that we should listen to the absolution and not let our thoughts wander. Sometimes the officiant puts a special emphasis on the forgiveness of sins (absolution) and/or on the Holy Communion which I think is not a bad idea. Otherwise it tends to become a habit.
As far as brethren in the diaspora are concerned, yes, the church sends them letters and also wafers. I believe (have to look it up) it says in the letters that the sins are foriven. At any rate, the practice differs here necessarily from what happens and from what we hear explained in service. Add to this that the way how we celebrate the Lord's Supper since around 1917 is not how the NAK/NAC used to do it: since then we do no longer have bread and wine but the wafer. Both, especially wine, was in short supply during WW I, so ChAp Niehaus decreed that the method with the wafers shall be introduced. If we take the bible literally it can be debated whether the wafer with three drops of wine is what Jesus established (eat and drink). I have also heard the version that the wafer is the "receipt" for the absolution. I have also heard definite rebuttals of this story because in fact both things have nothing to do with each other although they happen in close timely succession which can lead to this interpretation. Now that we know that the HS is also active in other denominations the question arises whether the absolution pronounced by a minister in those denominations is worthless or not. The NAC has not touched this subject. in the gk forum in German: Feier des Hl, Abendmahls Change of pratice: adfontes.de, in German Dokuments at "edition albury collection" http://www.apostolic.de Dokument a-0299 Thiersch, H.W.J.: Inbegriff der christlichen Lehre, Katechismus der KAG, Teil 1 und 2, ab Seite 589 - FNFTES HAUPTSTCK - DAS HEILIGE ABENDMAHL Dokument a-0300 Albrecht, Ludwig: Abhandlungen ber die Kirche, Katechismus der KAG, Teil 3, ab Seite 313 - 2. DAS OPFER IM GOTTESDIENST DER KIRCHE Dokument a-0611 Cardale, John Bate: VORLESUNGEN BER DIE LITURGIE UND DEN ANDEREN GOTTESDIENSTEN DER KIRCHE BAND I.1 DIE EUCHARISTIE ODER DAS ABENDMAHL DES HERRN AUS DEM ENGLISCHEN BERSETZT VON BOLKO FREIHERR VON RICHTHOFEN, ZWEITE AUFLAGE, AUGSBURG, VERLAG VON RICHARD PREYSS, 1882 or, the English text: Dokument b-021 Cardale, John Bate: READINGS UPON THE LITURGY AND OTHER DIVINE OFFICES OF THE CHURCH, VOL. I ON THE EUCHARIST AND DAILY OFFICES CONNECTED THEREWITH, LONDON, THE BEDFORD BOOKSHOP, 1933 Quoted from some posts by Peter Sgotzai Edited 20060926 Added links |
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kbb |
SH - What is the value of doctrine if members cannot agree | #52 |
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Posts: 1663 09/26/2006 11:34 Official Prophet |
SH
Why leave a mistake posted for several hours if you realized it just after posting, posts can be editted if you're logged in. Having others correct realized errors, is, IMO, either lazy or just plain sloppy. Also, you could predict (not know) that someone would point our your error in introducting a fourth Sacrament, as people nitpick inaccurate posts to death here at NACBoard. Only ClmT knows what and when things will happen, and allows them to occur or not. I admit, predicting a Board member will call you on introducing the fourth Sacrament is a safe bet. SH post #386 "It's not NAC's agreeing that is important. What is important is what it really does stand for... in our doctrine. I know the absolution and the communion does confuse some members. However, they are two separate sacraments." Some members, YOU just tried to slip in a fourth sacrament, then whitewash away YOUR confusion, knowing that someone would be kind enough to point out your error. Beyond that, I completely disagree with the your point quoted above. If NACs cannot agree what the doctrine stands for, then what use is the doctrine? If NACs do not agree what the doctrine stands for, who decides? Isn't a consistent teaching of what the doctrine stands for important? Isn't what members believe important? What is the function of any denomination other than to provide a framework for a specific set of beliefs, and the NAC isa very specific/exclusive set of beliefs I too recall being admonished to include in my morning prayer to come under the DAp's absolution (for us). Later kbb |
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Ed Banger |
Re: sleeping | #53 |
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Posts: 2352 09/26/2006 15:49 Redneck Bishop |
Quote: What really transpired after Christ said this was that a stone came shooting outta the middle of the crowd, hits the hooker in the head and kills her dead on the spot. Jesus turns to the crowd and says: Mother, sometimes you really piss me off. 
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Ed Banger |
I gotta go change my shorts... | #54 |
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Posts: 2352 09/26/2006 15:53 Redneck Bishop |
Quote: Genuis, pure genuis. Sir, I applaude you! 
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SonjaHelga |
Re: sleeping | #55 |
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Posts: 668 09/26/2006 16:02 |
kbb
Most members go to church, listen to the service, and go home and try to follow what they heard in service. Most members do not study the doctrine papers. Nor even study the scriptures. They listen to the word. I know this because not many of other religions can talk in depth about faith and scripture. So, if they are not absolutely sure about the sacraments, we won't knock them for that, o.k. Let's leave them their peace to worship as they will. Others, they are interested in the deeper part of the faith. This goes for all churches. You will not find many churches where the members are totally familiar with the doctrine, and the scriptures. Many people just like to go to church. And you are totally wrong: I am neither sloppy nor lazy. But eh, you are allowed your opinion. That's cool. |
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tiredlurker |
following | #56 |
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Posts: 203 09/26/2006 16:37 King of the Great White North |
sh convicts:
Quote: I hope they dont follow blindly just because someone told them to that would cultish behaviour. SH adds Quote: Wierd- no study of doctrine or scripture, they just listen to THE WORD because they were taught this was THE WORD OF GOD. That would be cult-like behaviour. SH knows: Quote: Really SH. Religion is all about geting in depth unless they are not really a religion but a sect. I am assuming you are useing religion widely and not just refering to christianity or "NAC CHRISTIANTY" SH asks for let sleeping dogs lie: Quote: Just let them belong, follow and wallow as they will, where is the development and christianity. SH proclaims for others: Quote: Deeper then doctrine and scripture? please tell me SH informs of other churches: Quote: Thats insane- people go to church because they are "Incurably religious", this means seeking and finding truth, not in being told to follow blindly. |
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SonjaHelga |
Re: following | #57 |
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Posts: 668 09/26/2006 18:03 |
Nonsense. I was talking about all Christians, not just NACS. |
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Ed Banger |
Re: sleeping | #58 |
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Posts: 2352 09/26/2006 18:23 Redneck Bishop |
Quote: And you know this how? Oh, that's right...  Try my Mother-in-laws Presbyterian Church. Or my boss's Baptist church. My son's friends Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. For that matter, almost any ex-NACer. They'd run CIRCLES around any active NAer (AB or not) concerning bible scripture and understanding of the bible. and another thing.....while I'm at it: Quote: Then you have the freaking unmitigated gall to post this pearl: Quote: I ask you, do you have FACTS that Tom set up his rector or is was it a personal assumption on your part????????????? intregity, my BFA. Well, one more added to Ed's PNG list. |
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olderandwisertwo |
Re: sleeping | #59 |
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Posts: 517 09/26/2006 20:18 |
SonjaHelga states:
Quote: "This goes for all churches. You will not find many churches where the members are totally familiar with the doctrine, and the scriptures" ____________________________________________________ SH: Here I must really take exception with your statement. Upon what facts or statistics do you base your knowledge that in "many churches members are TOTALLY unfamiliar with the doctrine and the scriptures"?? Please understand that main-line Christian churches are very different from the NAC, in that the members do not practice blind faith or unquestioning obedience to human leaders. We check things out for ourselves. Our ministers do not tell us that they have a direct pipe-line to God and therefore we should not question what they say. Our minister encourages us to bring our bible to church to check him out. We are strongly encouraged to participate in a bible study, either in class or in a small group and there are many such opportunities. Many of the people I know participate very actively in their spritual growth, in the workings of their church, and in their service to their fellow-man. Many of the churches actually ENCOURAGE us to ask the tough questions - without being considered weak in faith. So please don't generalize and put us all in the same basket unless you have facts to back it up. |
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SonjaHelga |
Re: sleeping | #60 |
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Posts: 668 09/27/2006 07:34 |
Quote: A lot of personal experience :)... Lots of personal experience |
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