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Two Unfinished Topics And Questions

Author	Comment
Ernie	Re: sleeping	#61		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 08:54 Favored Son	I have not polled my church, and so cannot say, but I think it's a poor excuse to say others are ignorant too, so it's OK for us. That's not a real strong argument.
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SonjaHelga	Re: sleeping	#62		[-]
Posts: 668 09/27/2006 09:06	Ernie, You missed my point. That is not what I am saying. I am just saying that in order to go to church, to listen to the services, to enjoy what is being taught, does NOT mean you have to be totally versed in scripture and doctrine. Many of my neighbours and friends just simply enjoy the services they go to, and do not touch the bible, or any other religious documents till the next service. As a matter of fact, many do not know much about the bible or doctrine at all. They are NOT intersted in the written verses or doctrine, rather, they just enjoy the services and what they are taught through these services. Many do that. I know that for sure. And if YOU want to put people down for their own type of worship, you go ahead. I won't. If they get enough for their soul out of this type of worship, then that is their right.
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Ernie	Geez, calm down	#63		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 13:42 Favored Son	That's right SH, you are totally loving and kind, allowing everyone to worship as they wish, and I am the evil one, forcing them to do it my way. Give me a break, all I said was it wasn't a good argument for biblical ignorance that everyone else is doing it. You sure get touchy some times.
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SonjaHelga	Re: Geez, calm down	#64		[-]
Posts: 668 09/27/2006 13:52	With an important topic such as this, darn sure I get touchy. And yes, I am loving and kind.
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Ernie	Hmmm...	#65		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 15:57 Favored Son	... so are you saying that as long as the person learns something good and feels good when it is over that that's all thats really needed in a church?
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SonjaHelga	Re: Hmmm...	#66		[-]
Posts: 668 09/27/2006 16:03	No, not at all. I am saying every person should have the right to worship at whatever level and intensity their souls demand. That's all. We are not all the same, and should not expect others to be the same as us. One of my very favorite and best friends is such a "simple" person, and biblical she is not knowledgeable whatsoever, but her faith! Wow! Perhaps that is why Christ himself said that unless you have the faith of a child..... the simplicity of faith, not the complication of faith. I wished I could be less complicated to be honest with you.
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Ernie	OK	#67		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 16:16 Favored Son	I can accept that, but it can be a slippery slope depending on who you put your trust in to listen too, don't you agree? I'd hate to have a great faith, then find out from God (or Calamity) that I've been believing something that pisses him off. What will God do in the end with deluded true believers? Hell, I don't know, I'm not that dogmatic.
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SonjaHelga	Re: Hmmm...	#68		[-]
Posts: 668 09/27/2006 16:22	SonjaHelga, please forgive me - i was trying to reply to your message, and i must have hit "Delete" by accident. if you can remember what you wrote, could you edit this post and bring it back? again, a thousand pardons . . . From Me :) I should be so lucky to remember ... maybe it is meant to be, No problem, Calamity, just keep doing your good work... I am off to church,
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Ernie	Re: Hmmm...	#69		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 16:32 Favored Son	But again SH, what if someone is listening to, believing, and following someone who is leading them astray? Are they saved? Forget I'm a fallen NAC, I'm not trying to trick you, just wondering what you think.
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SonjaHelga	Re: Hmmm...	#70		[-]
Posts: 668 09/27/2006 16:37	Ernie, I can only think of the one song, "Thrones and their sceptors all shall perish, kings and their kingdoms will fall" But what will happen with those who believe, but follow the wrong leaders? I personally would think that the leaders will be in a lot of trouble, but God is also a gracious God, and I feel that he will take the believers unto himself. How and when, I don't have a clue, I just believe he will. Why would God not want to do that? He is a loving God.
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Ernie	Re: Hmmm...	#71		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 16:54 Favored Son	In general, I would agree with you about both the believers and the leaders. Makes me think of the Nazis and the German nation. At some point following and supporting evil, becomes evil. God will sort it out, I'm sure. See, I'm not so bad after all.
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Still Standing	Re: Hmmm...	#72		[-]
Posts: 1211 09/27/2006 17:33	Ernie said: "Makes me think of the Nazis and the German nation. At some point following and supporting evil, becomes evil" ____________________________________________________ Yes, I was thinking along the same lines Ernie...Jim Jones, Waco, etc. History is full of "sincere but deluded believers" who blindly followed a leader without examining the teaching/doctrine for themselves. Most of the time, you have a benign result (although some might argue that such behavior results in spiritual retardation) but every so often...catastrophic results follow. If one believes in a "personal" God, would we expect that blind obedience to any given religious leader (christian or any monotheistic religion) would be encouraged or excused no matter the results? A personal concept of God is usually synonymous with a "Heavenly Father" figure and humans are His children. So the parent - child relationship is pivotal in this scenario. As human parents, we expect to tell our children what to do when they are very young and not capable of reason. We need to do this to protect them. However, as they grow older and mature, we begin to slowly allow them to make their own decisions and mistakes and hopefully, learn from them. Parents expect a preschooler to "blindly" follow them and they are corrected in some way if they fail to do so. Gradually, our role changes as the child matures. By the time the child is an adult, our expectations are different. We want them to stand on their own two feet and make decisions for themselves. We wouldn't want them to be dependent on the parents to think for them. Blind obedience is no longer appropriate nor desirable. Is it reasonable that God's expectations for His children would somehow be different than a human parent? Does God demand that we never grow up and mature? Would He condone blindly following under any and all conditions? Where does self-responsibility come into play? I can no more imagine that God expects His children to blindly follow a religious leader anymore than I can imagine my children forever blindly following whatever I have to say.I can't imagine that God would not want you to examine the teaching/doctrine for yourself rather than passively receiving it from others. To me, this behavior leads to spiritual retardation. It has never made sense to me.
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Ernie	Thank you	#73		[-]
Posts: 171 09/27/2006 17:46 Favored Son	Thanks SS for putting into words what was in my heart. I tend to be a "blurper", heavy on the sarcasm, light on the explanation.
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Ernie	Am I where I think I am?	#74		[-]
Posts: 171 09/28/2006 18:04 Favored Son	I think this is the right thread, these things get all gumbled. I thought the fact that absolution by the Apostles is not mentioned in the NT is a BIG deal, so I asked a TB I know about that. His answer was that "you know how things are, things get left out". He spent a half a page of text to say that. Now wait a minute, sin is what put us into the earthly situation we're in, right? So removing that sin by the words of an Apostle should be a big deal, right? AND THAT'S NOT MENTIONED!!!!!! I thinking of those nodding head dogs in the rear windows, can the NAC do a group buy on those? These could be called Bobs.
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Calamity	Re: Am I where I think I am?	#75		[-]
Posts: 5170 09/28/2006 21:42 MythInformed	*Quote:* Ernie sez: I thought the fact that absolution by the Apostles is not mentioned in the NT is a BIG deal, so I asked a TB I know about that. His answer was that "you know how things are, things get left out". He spent a half a page of text to say that. yes, of course! baffle 'em with BS! just wait until 2008 - now that they've decided to give the Apocrypha equal weight as the rest of the bible, there's no telling what kind of swiss-cheesy doctrine they'll be able to squeeze together! i can't wait, i tells ya!! *Quote:* Now wait a minute, sin is what put us into the earthly situation we're in, right? So removing that sin by the words of an Apostle should be a big deal, right? AND THAT'S NOT MENTIONED!!!!!! why can't you just put aside your intellect and BELIEVE? *Quote:* I thinking of those nodding head dogs in the rear windows, can the NAC do a group buy on those? These could be called Bobs. i'd buy a case. if you hang 'em from a tree with some string, they make good targets for plinking at with the .22!
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Ernie	The Reply	#76		[-]
Posts: 171 09/28/2006 22:27 Favored Son	Amazing thing Calamity, wqs that reading the response, it was full of bible verses, well written, and sounded reasonable if you didn't think about what it was (or wasn't) saying.
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Calamity	Re: The Reply	#77		[-]
Posts: 5170 09/28/2006 22:44 MythInformed	*Quote:* Ernie notes: Amazing thing Calamity, wqs that reading the response, it was full of bible verses, well written, and sounded reasonable if you didn't think about what it was (or wasn't) saying. kinda like Freund's Halloween and Offering Letters, eh? lemme guess - lotsa out-of-context bible quotes thrown in, along with some dubious "facts" and intelligent-sounding arguments? yeah, i know . . . like a post from myule, when you really read it, you wonder why you bothered.
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vapour123	Two Unfinished Topics And Questions - sleeping....	#78		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/29/2006 01:33 Forum Moderator	SonjaHelga wrote: Quote: ====================================== Most members go to church, listen to the service, and go home and try to follow what they heard in service. Most members do not study the doctrine papers. Nor even study the scriptures. They listen to the word. I know this because not many of other religions can talk in depth about faith and scripture. So, if they are not absolutely sure about the sacraments, we won't knock them for that, o.k. Let's leave them their peace to worship as they will. Others, they are interested in the deeper part of the faith. This goes for all churches. You will not find many churches where the members are totally familiar with the doctrine, and the scriptures. Many people just like to go to church. And you are totally wrong: I am neither sloppy nor lazy. But eh, you are allowed your opinion. That's cool. =========================================== Point 1: Sonja -- This is true for most New Apostolic Church Members.... -- Most NAC members go to church, listen to the service, and go home and try to follow what they heard in service. -- Most NAC members do not study the doctrine papers. Nor even study the scriptures. They listen to the word. ------------------------------------------- Point 2: "Others, they are interested in the deeper part of the faith." -- Sonja...what can be deeper than the Scripture - God's Word ( see 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ) -------------------------------------------------- Point 3: "This goes for all churches. You will not find many churches where the members are totally familiar with the doctrine, and the scriptures. Many people just like to go to church." -- Sonja how can you speak for most churches...You know what the NAC does because you go there...You don't go to Non-Denominational Churches, Baptist Churches, Espicipal Churches, Anglician Churches, Methodist Churches, Catholic Churches, Presbyterian Churches...etc, etc, etc.....You go to New Apostolic Church....so you can't even go there! I have a Christian friend who attends a Non-Denominational Church and She told me they Teach the Bible, Encourage Bible Study, they Bring Bibles to Church and use them....They study the Bible. She told me the minister at this church teaches instructs them in Bible Doctrine, Systematic Theology, Christian Apologetics - and from studying with her and talking to her you can tell that she has been taught well and IS very knowledgeable in these areas. Too bad the same can't be said for the NAC....The NAC just wants you to have blind faith so you just basically 'Follow and Swollow' -- 'Drink The Kool Aid' -- You have Nothing to Say...Absolutely Nothing! ...you know just like District Apostle Kraus said: *Quote:* "A New Apostolic member, a so-called scholar for the royal highness that waits for him, has only one thing to fulfill and that is: TO DO WHAT HE IS TOLD. HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY. If God would permit His children, for whom the highest price is paid, to intervene with their own ideas, then the first step would be taken towards a mass confusion, as we have it in this world today. We pray: THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. So all those in heaven have nothing to say: ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD DECIDES WHAT IS TO BE DONE. The opposite of DEMOCRACY, which brought a mas confusion in our time, is AUTOCRACY. We looked it up in the dictionary and there the word AUTOCRACY is described as THE DIVINE WILL. This divine will reigns in the godly undertaking in our Church, and is protected by our Chief Apostle to the highest degree, which we support with all our life. The will of man is poison toward the will of God, and we have no room for poison in our Church. To those who do not agree with the above, I can only say that the Lord Jesus congre- gated them into a group by themselves and He gave them a special name; He called them FOOLS. When he met the virgins, half of them were foolish and half were wise. The fools pointed out what they had all done while living here on earth. The Lord Jesus did not deny their works, but He only said to them: Depart from me ye doers of iniquity! Wherein was this iniquity? - IN THEIR OWN WILL AND IN THEIR OWN IDEA, coming out of their own heart. They set their own will and idea above the WILL of GOD, just like Adam did. The heart of man is evil from youth on, and for this there is no room in God's activity, nor in the kingdom to come. The Lord Jesus said: He who is not with me is against me, and He who is against me is my enemy. So if some are not with us and do not agree with us - why do they not all get together and fashion their own religion, or their own club. We will even build a church for them, because the Lord Jesus said that we should be good to our enemies. So I am willing to do just that, without asking any questions - and nobody will stop me. Maybe the one or the other may think: Are we not cared for more than that? - We will not care for those who will not subject themselves in an unconditional obedience of faith. Why should the fools be cared for?" -- District Apostle Michael Kraus taken from DA Kraus's infamous letter p072.ezboard.com/fnacboar...D=51.topic
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vapour123	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions - sleeping....	#79		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/29/2006 13:21 Forum Moderator	SonjaHelga wrote: *Quote:* I am saying every person should have the right to worship at whatever level and intensity their souls demand. That's all. We are not all the same, and should not expect others to be the same as us. One of my very favorite and best friends is such a "simple" person, and biblical she is not knowledgeable whatsoever, but her faith! Wow! Perhaps that is why Christ himself said that unless you have the faith of a child..... the simplicity of faith, not the complication of faith. -- If a baker wants to be the best baker....does not the baker want to know everything there is to know about baking... -- If a roofer wants to be the best roofer...does not the roofer want to know everything there is to know about roofing... -- If a teacher wants to be the best teacher...does not the teacher want to know everything there is to know about teaching... -- If a hockey player wants to be the best hockey player...does not the hockey player want to know everything there is to know about hockey... Do you see where I am going with this...? Even Jesus and his Disciples knew the scripture backward and forward....they taught it....they lived it out....they called the scripture - "God Breathed" Inspired from God (2 Timothy 3:16). 2 Timothy Chapter 3 also suggests that man should study the Word of God......! Studying the Word... 2 Timothy 3:14-17 (NKJV) "But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Preaching the Word.... 2 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV) "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." Spiritual Immaturity Hebrews 5:12-14 (NKJV) "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." The Word Discovers Our Condition Hebrews 4:12-13 (NKJV) For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Our Compassionate High Priest Hebrews 4:14-16 (NKJV) "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." The Whole Armor of God Ephessians 6:10-20 (NKJV) "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." So yes...one can just do what they want (little or nothing)...and be satisified.... But are they really satisfied?
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vapour123	Re: Two Unfinished Topics And Questions - sleeping....	#80		[-]
Posts: 1931 09/29/2006 16:23 Forum Moderator	Another reason to be versed in the Bible... -- Be not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ -- In Your Heart, set apart Christ as Lord -- Always be prepared to give an answer to all who ask about Christ -- Do this courteously and respectfully -- Because the Gospel of Christ is the Power of God for Salvation 1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) *"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."* 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV) *"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."* Romans 1:16 (KJV) *"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."*
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