Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds? in Hot and New Topics Forum

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Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

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deaconess

Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

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Posts: 9724

02/07/2012 18:50

NAC Thorn in the Side

Tags : witholding offering, nac ministers, ethics, brinkmann scandal

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While I was still attending the NAC, several ministers admitted to me that they were withholding their offerings from the NAC because of lack of financial transparency. Instead they were supporting charities outside of the NAC with their tithing.

Do the members in their congregations know that their ministers have issues with the lack of financial transparency? Or, have the ministers been dishonest with the members, leading them to believe that everything is honkey-dorey. Would the members continue to place their tithes in the offeratory if they knew that their ministers were questioning authority?

Is it ethical for a minister that is an ordained representative of a church to not financially support their denomination and not share this fact with the members?

(added search tags to top of post - C)

Edited 3 times by deaconess 05/21/2012 16:59.

Calamity

It's whispered about but never said aloud.

#1

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Posts: 6590

02/07/2012 19:55

Ne'er-do-well

deaconess wrote:
Is it ethical for a minister that is an ordained representative of a church to not financially support their denomination and not share this fact with the members?

Is it "ethical"? Ask some of them after they're done porking their girlfriends, either the ones they left their wives for or the ones they're shacking up with now. They'll give you an ethical answer as soon as they're done.

Most NAC ministers are missing a backbone. They all know what needs to be said and what needs to be changed, but they lack the BACKBONE to stand up and say "I'm not supporting this utter CRAP any more!" in front of the congregation because they will lose their "office". Because of what mommy or daddy or sister or brother or friend will think of them. Because mommy or daddy or sister or brother or friend might disown them. And then what will they do? What about their precious egos? How can they continue to pretend that they've got a "High and Holy Calling" after a public display of disobedience to the Chief Apostate? How will they be able to continue to parade around and be called "Priest" or "Evangelist" or "District Elder" and pretend to forgive sins if they're not "in oneness with those who go before them"?

Ethics? Impossible for the deluded. They can't be honest with themselves, much less with anyone else.

Offender

#2

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Posts: 467

02/10/2012 12:50

If we look to NAC ministers for ethics, we may as well ask the poor how to invest money, the obese how to exercise, the blind how to see, etc.

There are many many methods of resistance Calamity. There's the in your face kind (described by yourself above), and then there's the silent kind that works from behind the scenes. In many cases, the silent kind is more insidious and often (though slower, eventually) more effective (IMO).

Feel free however to stage your own OCCUPY NAC demonstration - would love to see the signs you could come up with for that!!

Calamity

Silent partners

#3

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Posts: 6590

02/10/2012 13:54

Ne'er-do-well

The NAC is immune to the "silent kind" of protest/change because I would bet that none of those who are vested in the Family Businesses want things to change. They want the power structure to remain exactly the way it is, with the "apostles" telling everyone how to be good, obedient little cash machines, and the cash machines doing all the work whilst handing over 10% of their income. 10 million members or 100, they don't care, as long as the power structure remains the way it is. They'll get guys like the Schmidt boys and Hammer to reinvest the Family monies in ways that won't affect their lifestyles too much.

Silent protests? Just remember - Disobeying God's Servants Is A Sin. Willy Leber said so!

cardiac

Perhaps for good reasons:

#4

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Posts: 3

02/14/2012 14:46

I hope USA is better at picking investments than Germany...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101061/Gang-conned-Christian-philanthropist-12-MILLION-promising-huge-returns-investment-didnt-exist.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

klitzke

#5

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Posts: 2716

02/14/2012 15:24

ezOP

From the article:

Other alleged victims included Utah commodities dealer Randall Schreiber, who parted with $900,000 (£570,000), and the New Apostolic Church in Dortmund, Germany, which lost 15m euros (£12.6m).

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2101061/Gang-conned-Christian-philanthropist-12-MILLION-promising-huge-returns-investment-didnt-exist.html#ixzz1mNyLpo1S

Anyone in Germany hear about this? or can find out? It's no small amount ( a lot of widow's mites ) I would think it would be big news.

PS - That's almost $20 mill U.S. I wonder if it shows up in those fantastically detailed pie charts that are the NAKI's attempt at financial openness.

Edited 1 time by klitzke 02/14/2012 15:27.

morse2000

#6

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Posts: 1019

02/14/2012 16:02

NAC Inspector

I wonder if any other districts invested to a lesser degree. The NAC US may not have. Doesn't Ap. Hammer do the investing for the US district?

Calamity

Greed, pure and simple

#7

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Posts: 6590

02/14/2012 16:28

Ne'er-do-well

I love how the report tries to claim that the gang played on the victim's "religious faith". They played on their GREED for more money.

I'm glad the NAC lost $12.6 million. At least it's a little bit more than I paid out in offering and sacrifices.

Haranguer

Watcha Doin' With Those Talents?

#8

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Posts: 626

02/14/2012 21:17

This is priceless!

Some lackey must have reflected upon not burying the talents he was entrusted with. At least he "gave those talents to the money changers". Unfortunately he didn't do any better than the people dealing with Bernie Madoff. Judging by the sum that individual must not have been a low level person either. If he ain't an apostle already his chances of becoming one may have diminished significantly.

Some things I can already imagine being discussed in the hallways of world headquarters:
1. How did this happen?
2. Woe to that person. That's God's money he messed with. Kraus used to bring up the 7 generation curse upon the family of whoever perpetrated such a thing.
3. This was meant to be or our Heavenly Father wouldn't have allowed it.

To me it's poetic justice. The NAC is continuing with the swindle/charade of July 1963 1960. Now they got swindled. Feels good, doesn't it?

edited to improve historical accuracy

"if you have to try and persuade yourself of something, you are probably already very much inclined to doubt or distrust it." - Christopher Hitchens

Edited 1 time by Haranguer 02/15/2012 22:30.

morse2000

#9

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Posts: 1019

02/14/2012 21:44

NAC Inspector

What is the swindle/charade of July 1963?

Offender

#10

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Posts: 467

02/15/2012 09:05

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Haranguer wrote:
that individual must not have been a low level person either. If he ain't an apostle already his chances of becoming one may have diminished significantly.

Yeah well, history has proved otherwise. This IS the church of the Peter Principle.

klitzke

#11

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Posts: 2716

02/15/2012 09:24

ezOP

Received via e-mail:

Gist: Yes, they invested money in a fraudulent scheme. No, it was
not 15 million but 10 million Euro from reserve funds. Yes, the first
contradictions surfaced in 2007 after the investment, and the NAK tried for
three years without success to negotiate a return of the money with the
embezzlers. Yes, the NAK is also sueing them through the German attorney
general in Bochum and consequently the criminals have all been arrested in
England. Yes, the criminals are being persecuted right now in England. No,
they will not comment further because the case is still in court.

This is a summary of an article in German on the glaubenskultur website. Thank you for the information.

See, it's not so bad, only 10M Euro, not 15M.

Haranguer

#12

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Posts: 626

02/15/2012 09:24

Swindle/charade of 1963 1960 was Bischoff's death if I have the history correct. They didn't go over that one much in confirmation class. nuke

Hmmm...I wonder why. nuke

"if you have to try and persuade yourself of something, you are probably already very much inclined to doubt or distrust it." - Christopher Hitchens

Edited 1 time by Haranguer 02/15/2012 22:32.

morse2000

#13

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Posts: 1019

02/15/2012 10:43

NAC Inspector

Bischoff died in 1960.

Haranguer

#14

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Posts: 626

02/15/2012 13:03

Posts have been edited. Leaving this in as a placeholder.

"if you have to try and persuade yourself of something, you are probably already very much inclined to doubt or distrust it." - Christopher Hitchens

Edited 1 time by Haranguer 02/15/2012 22:47.

klitzke

#15

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Posts: 2716

02/15/2012 17:48

ezOP

Official news from the district church from 2012-02-15 after it had already
been out in the open on the Nacboard:

http://www.nak-nrw.de/aktuelles/kurznotiert/120215_kirche-wird-opfer-von-anlagebetruegern/

District apostle Brinkmann informed (or will inform, the article uses present
tense; for actuality?) the members of the synod and all ministers of the
district church in a circular letter. He writes that he cannot give any
detailed information at this time because of the ongoing trial which is
expected to last several months yet.

This has been going on since 2007, and the members are only finding out now because of an article referred to on the NACBoard. Thanks for everybody spreading the word and digging for details. So much for financial transparency.

Edited 1 time by klitzke 02/15/2012 17:51.

4506sw

#16

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Posts: 239

02/16/2012 10:06

Can't stop laughing over the idea that swindlers got swindled...

Joycey

#17

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Posts: 209

02/17/2012 08:06

The trial continues at Norwich Crown Court UK

I believe the NAC was conned in 2007

Why was it kept so quiet? What happened to the finance people in the Dortmund office? Who ok'd this investment?

Were the members ever told?

I believe Arthur Ford Batey (the accused) was in several businesses.You can see them on the Web

klitzke

#18

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Posts: 2716

02/17/2012 13:54

ezOP

More information that appeared in my in-box:

District apostle Brinkmann assumes the responsibility for this investment in
his letter to the ministers. He wrote: "A couple of years ago an investment
has been offered to me which appeared to yield a high return and appeared to
be safe." The NAK NRW did not answer how the contact with the fraudsters was
established. Brinkmann closes his letter and begs: "Please pray together with
me that our district church can come out of this fraud without a loss, if
possible."

Writers on Glaubenskultur stated that the statutes of the district church
allow only one person to sign an investment of this magnitude: the district
apostle.

You wanna take responsibility, Brinkmann? Resign! But no, now the NAC trots out the old "he's only a man and men make mistakes", except when they are talking to the members, then it's god's word. Go figure. If a man can make a 10Mil Euro mistake, then he can make a mistake when he talks over the altar to YOU. I wonder how many other financial "errors" there have been, that have gone unreported?

Michael Koch reports in another article that - according to Peter Johanning -
the NAK has modified its guidelines about asset administration due to this
incident. There are now easy-to-grasp rules which specify the various classes
of investments, the bandwidth per class, minimum ratings and ethical
principles. A panel which includes external specialists to oversee the
investments has also been created.

PJ stresses the fact that the New Apostolic Church International and the
district churches are aware of the fact that their income is to a large degree
based on donations. "Because of the special nature of this income we are
dealing with it very carefully."

Boy I sure would like to see the books on NACNA investments some day, especially during the Kraus era.

klitzke

#19

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Posts: 2716

02/17/2012 14:02

ezOP

Another little bit of info:

The NAK is considered rich by the British press :-o

The 85,711 members of the NAK NRW in 420 congregations offered (donated) 18.7 million Euro in 2010. The NAK NRW had a total income of 41.3 million Euro in this year, among others because they sold gold for 8.2 million Euro.

The market value of the NAK NRW was at 168.5 million Euro at the end of 2010. It is comprised of 24% liquid assets, 6% precious metals, 13% stock, 32% interest earning papers, and 25% properties. Churches and church properties are not included in these figures. The church yielded an ROI of 7.1% in 2010. In 2007 they must have expected even more ...

Just for information -

167.5mil EUR

=

221.6mil USD

4506sw

#20

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Posts: 239

02/17/2012 14:05

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klitzke wrote:

You wanna take responsibility, Brinkmann? Resign! But no, now the NAC trots out the old "he's only a man and men make mistakes", except when they are talking to the members, then it's god's word. Go figure. If a man can make a 10Mil Euro mistake, then he can make a mistake when he talks over the altar to YOU.

The NAC says that once these great and holy men get behind the altar, the HOLY SPIRIT takes over. Perhaps they should stand behind the altar when it becomes time to make financial decisions. Why, the NAC would never lose money again! (Even though the losing investment was certainly prayed over...wasn't it?)

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Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

This is NOT an official New Apostolic Church website! For official news or
information regarding the church, please contact:

**The New Apostolic Church * 1703 Peninsula Dr, Erie, PA 16505-4242 * (814) 833-6063**

e-mail NAC USA : communications@nac-usa.org

e-mail Peter Johanning, Media Secretary of the New Apostolic Church : peter.johanning@nak.org

Yuku free message boards

~ ~

Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

Are you withholding offering because you question how church leadership uses the funds?

This is NOT an official New Apostolic Church website! For official news or information regarding the church, please contact:

The New Apostolic Church * 1703 Peninsula Dr, Erie, PA 16505-4242 * (814) 833-6063

e-mail NAC USA : communications@nac-usa.org

e-mail Peter Johanning, Media Secretary of the New Apostolic Church : peter.johanning@nak.org

This is NOT an official New Apostolic Church website! For official news or
information regarding the church, please contact:

**The New Apostolic Church * 1703 Peninsula Dr, Erie, PA 16505-4242 * (814) 833-6063**